What steps need to be taken for successful human colonization of Mars?

[Urvabara]

What are the possibilities that there is a manned Mars mission in the year 2019 (or before)?

What are the main problems we should solve, before we can send humans to Mars? Why is it difficult to solve them in 12 years? Money, perhaps?

Is it possible that USA, Europe, Russia and China will combine their resources in space engineering? If they will do that in 2008, is it still impossible to send humans (safely) to Mars during 2019 (or before)?

What can a physics student do to help Mars mission scientist? There are no space engineering in Finland, I think. I just would like to do something...

 

[berkeman]

I think the biggest problem is that taking humans on the missions, and adding all the overhead to keep them alive and relatively safe (and return them to Earth), burdens the mission significantly. And the extra return for that burden to the mission is debatable. It has a high "cool" factor, but probably at least for the next 50-100 years, we can get a lot more for our investment if we send increasingly intelligent and mobile robot explorers to Mars. Seems like you'd at least like the robots to build the shelters and mine the water wells and get everything set up, before you considered shooting humans to Mars.

Just my opinion, though. BTW, I don't know if it helps, but here's NASA's main Mars page:

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/mars/main/index.html

 

[Astronuc]

It's a low priority right now. To do it in 2020, the technical infrastructure would have to be established now in order to have a demonstrable technology available. Given things like the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, which costs about $100 billion/yr, and the apparent deterioration of infrastructure in the US, money for a manned mission to Mars is unlikely.

Sending a Mars station in advance and as Berkeman indicated, using robotics to establish a surface support base would be better use of resources.

 

[Danger]

The last that I paid any attention, there were also still concerns about the psychological hardships that might be encountered by a crew so isolated from home with just each other for company.

 

[SRode]

First I'd say the travel time is a biggest factor. Second, constructing a ship and getting it into orbit that is large enough to carry crew, supplies, and equipment. The best way to accomplish this would seem to be a prefab system that is assembled in orbit, but at the rate the ISS is being completed it seems unreasonable. Finally, I think that if we are sending scientist/ explorers out there it needs to be a long term or permanent voyage. Once they are there that's it, not an apollo program type program system of going and coming stright back

 

[Urvabara]

Ok. Thanks for the replies, guys! I still have some questions.

What is the minimum flight time from Earth to Mars, if we use the technology of 2007?

How many crew members is the optimal choice?

Will there be a centrifuge in the spaceship to produce artificial gravity? Is it difficult to build a centrifuge seen in the film "2001: A Space Odyssey"? I think that the toilets and showers should be put in the centrifuge area.

In 2019, lights won't consume very much power, because they all are LED lights. So, probably power issues are almost solved. Right?

 

[Danger]

I don't know about the flight time. If my memory serves, it's something like 4 months minimum one-way.
As for optimum crew membership, that depends upon a lot of factors. My instinct along that line is that there should be at least 4 each of male and female. Ideally, I would think that previously bonded couples should be chosen (and the male/female ratio could be altered to account for same-sex unions).
A ship wouldn't need a separate centrifuge area; the whole thing could spin. I agree that a 'positive-g' toilet would be preferable to the 'zero-g' type—too many things to get caught in the impellers.
As for the LED's, you're correct that they don't draw a lot of wattage. Unfortunately, lighting is the least of your worries when it comes to power management. Atmospheric control systems will take most of the available supply. Be that as it may, isotopic reactors should have no trouble keeping up.

 

[Urvabara]

Ideally, I would think that previously bonded couples should be chosen (and the male/female ratio could be altered to account for same-sex unions).

How about the people who do not bond at all? The loners? At least, they would not probably miss so much the people on Earth and they could concentrate 100% to the Mars mission.

As for the LED's, you're correct that they don't draw a lot of wattage. Unfortunately, lighting is the least of your worries when it comes to power management. Atmospheric control systems will take most of the available supply. Be that as it may, isotopic reactors should have no trouble keeping up.

Yep, you are probably right.

 

[Astronuc]

What is the minimum flight time from Earth to Mars, if we use the technology of 2007?

It's on the order of months, and I seem to remember more like 6 mo or more.

How many crew members is the optimal choice?

6-8, which includes at least two flight surgeons (doctors).

Will there be a centrifuge in the spaceship to produce artificial gravity? Is it difficult to build a centrifuge seen in the film "2001: A Space Odyssey"? I think that the toilets and showers should be put in the centrifuge area.

That is a consideration.

In 2019, lights won't consume very much power, because they all are LED lights. So, probably power issues are almost solved. Right?

It's possible that solar power as well as nuclear would be involved.

There are minimum energy transfer orbits, but they take too long. The best trip from the human standpoint is get there as fast as possible. However, we have to work around various technical constraints.

Radiation protection is a major concern.

The Martian transfer vehicle and orbital station will be very different than ISS - probably more like a large Apollo and Skylab respectively. The transfer vehicle would be finished on the ground, while the larger vehicle would likely be finished in orbit (LEO).

 

[Urvabara]

It's on the order of months, and I seem to remember more like 6 mo or more.

6-8, which includes at least two flight surgeons (doctors).

That is a consideration.

It's possible that solar power as well as nuclear would be involved.

There are minimum energy transfer orbits, but they take too long. The best trip from the human standpoint is get there as fast as possible. However, we have to work around various technical constraints.

Yep. Medical doctors are needed and I also think the faster the ship, the better. If one way trip takes half a year (or even more), there are many possibilities that something will fail badly.

Radiation protection is a major concern.

The radiation is mostly from the Sun, isn't it? X-rays? Gamma rays?

How about the micro meteors? They could make holes to the ship's walls. Maybe the front end side of the ship should be thicker, because it probably takes the most meteor hits (like the car's winshield takes more mosquito hits than the rear and side windows).

The Martian transfer vehicle and orbital station will be very different than ISS - probably more like a large Apollo and Skylab respectively. The transfer vehicle would be finished on the ground, while the larger vehicle would likely be finished in orbit (LEO).

So, we are going to need yet another space station to build the ship? Oh, boy.

Maybe we should forget the Moon and put all the money and efforts to Mars. If we are going to the Moon by 2020 then it will take at least another 10 years, before we can go to the Mars.

 

[Danger]

How about the people who do not bond at all? The loners?

You have a point about them not missing home very much, but people like that tend to not be great team players. The only reason that I suggested bonded couples is to minimize sexual tension as well as the sense of isolation. There is less likely to be rivalry for the attention of an individual if that person is already 'spoken for' (and also if one's own spouse is chaperoning).
As far as radiation shielding is concerned, a lot of previous designs for deep-space vehicles that I've seen use the on-board water supply as a major component. It can be stored in a 'double-hull' surrounding the crew compartment. While not adequate on its own, it can certainly contribute.

 

[ank_gl]

How about the people who do not bond at all? The loners? At least, they would not probably miss so much the people on Earth and they could concentrate 100% to the Mars mission.

loners are already ill

 

[russ_watters]

What are the possibilities that there is a manned Mars mission in the year 2019 (or before)?

Virtually nonexistent.

What are the main problems we should solve, before we can send humans to Mars? Why is it difficult to solve them in 12 years? Money, perhaps?

There are a number of issues, but AFAIK, none of them technically daunting. Money is the biggest dealbreaker issue - and it is a big one. IIRC, it would cost somewhere on the order of $1 trillion (it may have been more) for a Mars program, which would require 10x NASA's current budget for a ten year project.

Is it possible that USA, Europe, Russia and China will combine their resources in space engineering?

They already have to a large extent. But the US still has the lions share of those resources, so we're doing most of the work on joint projects (ie, the ISS).

If they will do that in 2008, is it still impossible to send humans (safely) to Mars during 2019 (or before)?

It is certainly possible. As Jim Lovell's character said in the Apollo 13 movie: 'it's not a miracle - we just decided to go'. That's the primary requirement to make it happen.

What can a physics student do to help Mars mission scientist? There are no space engineering in Finland, I think. I just would like to do something...

Not a lot as a student, but you could become an engineer in a related field and go to work for a company or agency in the program or a related one.

 

[russ_watters]

What is the minimum flight time from Earth to Mars, if we use the technology of 2007?

A few months. At it's closest, Mars comes about 40 million miles from Earth. If we were able to launch a craft at the right time and send it out at 20,000 mph, that's just under 3 months.

There is a complication though: Mars is at it's closest to Earth once every 2.5 years. That means that the astronauts would have to spend two years on Mars before returning.

In 2019, lights won't consume very much power, because they all are LED lights. So, probably power issues are almost solved. Right?

LED lights are not significantly more efficient than fluorescents and lighting is an insignificant part of the power requirements of a spaceship. Heat is a much bigger one. Besides - we have solar power for spacecraft , so it isn't a very big issue usually.

 

[Astronuc]

The radiation is mostly from the Sun, isn't it? X-rays? Gamma rays?

How about the micro meteors? They could make holes to the ship's walls. Maybe the front end side of the ship should be thicker, because it probably takes the most meteor hits (like the car's winshield takes more mosquito hits than the rear and side windows).

Mostly GCR and solar protons. The issue involves spallation reactions with the hull structrual materials, which are usually light elements. Surrounding the hull with hydrogenous propellants would help. Also, LiAl or LiH would provide a good shield against protons and some spallation products.

Micrometeorite protection is certainly an issue.

So, we are going to need yet another space station to build the ship?

No. The CEV is being developed already, quite independent of mission or infrastructure.

A Skylab type orbital support station would be needed in orbit around Mars. That would have to be sent in advance.

The idea is to get there as quickly as possible, and to return quickly. As Russ alluded to, there are windows of opportunity with respect to the closeness of Mars and the earth. Larger windows require more power.

 

[Urvabara]

loners are already ill

Hmm?

Well, I actually mean romantically inactive people. Are they also ill? Maybe not.

It is useless to send people who can go crazy in love. :!)

 

[Danger]

It is useless to send people who can go crazy in love. :!)

Show me a person who can't, and I'll show you a corpse.

 

[Urvabara]

Show me a person who can't

--> Me. <--

and I'll show you a corpse.

A corpse?

 

[Danger]

I can only assume that you've never been in love. Believe me... when it happens, all reason flies out the nearest window.

 

[ank_gl]

--> Me. <--

dont worry man, u ll find out soon

 

[Urvabara]

LOL. Thanks, guys. :->

 

[yujean]

we're more likely to develop a space station on the moon by 2020, than to go to Mars by 2020... The moon is rich with Helium-3, which can be used as a valuable energy source. Google / Wikipedia: Helium-3

 

[russ_watters]

Assuming we can figure out how to use it...

 

[Integral]

we're more likely to develop a space station on the moon by 2020, than to go to Mars by 2020... The moon is rich with Helium-3, which can be used as a valuable energy source. Google / Wikipedia: Helium-3

I hope you guys are doing all of this on your dime and not mine. Can anyone come up with a single REAL reason to send a human to Mars or the Moon?

I am sorry, there is so much difficult work to be done here on Earth NOW that man in space is a wast time and money. Do you as a physics student want to help get man is space? Then put all of your efforts into finding the energy source to get us there, the best way to do that is to find the energy source to free us from fossil fuels. We need to ensure the survival of our civilizations in the next 50yrs. Not create an expensive graveyard on Mars.

 

[turbo]

We have some pretty capable little explorers on Mars right now, and should we see some opportunities that are so compelling that we are willing to sacrifice one if necessary, that decision can be made with plenty of time to contemplate and weigh the benefits and costs. If we sent humans to Mars with current or near-future technology, we would gain flexibility and autonomy, but lose the advantages of robotic exploration, including lighter payloads (fuel is expensive, but lofting that fuel to orbit is WAY expensive), modest shielding requirements, and the ability to use fuel-saving gravity-assist trajectories to get the probes there without a lot of reaction mass to throw. Getting to the Moon was a walk across the street compared to getting humans to Mars, and the Apollo astronauts did not stay there long enough to stress their life-support and power systems.

I love the thought of space-flight, but at our level of technology, I would prefer that we fund numerous robotic explorations instead of gutting science for the sake of the "gee whiz" accomplishment of getting humans to another planet. Just my take on it. BTW, I grew up with the Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo missions in full swing and have an "autographed" picture of Buzz Aldrin that was certainly auto-penned. He was flying combat missions in Korea when I was born.

 

[mgb_phys]

We have some pretty capable little explorers on Mars right now

But we aren't going to bring them back to stand along side the politician in charge of funding them, and if we did no glamour is going to rub off on the politician.
Also with the current state of AI none of these rovers is likely to run for the senate and be in a position to help with funding.

It's the same problem with using predator drones instead of fighters.
In your campaing literature you can't use photos of yourself sitting in front of a keyboard as evidence of your topgun / war hero status.

 

[turbo]

Knowing what we know now about these little rovers, their capabilities, and the puzzles they face, the next generation of rovers could be designed to be WAY more capable, but not cost a whole lot more. Our technology is advancing apace, and the next generation of rovers could be lighter, faster, more agile, and more durable.

 

[yujean]

RKK Energiya is likely to mine the moon in 2020.

 

[Urvabara]

I made a web site: http://mars2019.org .

 

[Old Pokey]

I wonder what if anything "nanotechnology" could bring to the table on a trip like this. ??