What Test to Show that Inverse Curl Exists?

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    Curl Inverse Test
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of determining the existence of vector fields that describe the inverse curl of a given vector field. Participants explore both physical and mathematical tests to assess this condition, delving into the implications of the curl operator and the properties of vector fields.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants seek clarification on the term "inverse curl" and whether it refers to finding vector fields from a given curl.
  • There is a suggestion that a physical test could involve placing a small rotor in the flow of the vector field to observe behavior.
  • Mathematically, it is noted that the curl of a conservative vector field is zero, which raises questions about the uniqueness of solutions related to the inverse curl.
  • Some participants assert that the curl operator is not injective, indicating that there may not be a unique solution for the inverse curl.
  • One participant highlights that a necessary condition for a vector field to be the curl of another is that its divergence must be zero, but questions whether this condition is sufficient.
  • Poincare's lemma is introduced as a significant result that provides conditions under which a vector field can be the curl of another, particularly in certain types of domains.
  • Concerns are raised regarding the applicability of Poincare's lemma in non-convex domains, leading to references to De Rham's cohomology for more complex situations.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express uncertainty regarding the sufficiency of the divergence condition for determining the existence of an inverse curl. There is no consensus on the implications of Poincare's lemma in various domains, indicating ongoing debate and exploration of the topic.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights limitations related to the assumptions about the domains of vector fields and the conditions under which the divergence condition may or may not hold true.

greswd
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What test can we perform on a vector field to determine if there exist vector field(s) that describe its inverse curl?
 
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What do you mean by inverse curl? Are you saying you have the curl and now want to find the field or fields for it?

Are you looking for a physical test or a mathematical test?

Physically, you could place a small rotor in the flow and see what happens.

Mathematically you should know already ie what is the curl of a conservative field.
 
jedishrfu said:
What do you mean by inverse curl? Are you saying you have the curl and now want to find the field or fields for it?

Are you looking for a physical test or a mathematical test?

Physically, you could place a small rotor in the flow and see what happens.

Mathematically you should know already ie what is the curl of a conservative field.

The curl operator is not injective, hence there is no unique solution for the inverse curl. However, I just want to know the method by which we determine whether an inverse curl vector field does exist, given an existing vector field.

Mathematically speaking.
 
jedishrfu said:
Mathematically you should know already ie what is the curl of a conservative field.

the curl of a conservative vector field is zero.
 
greswd said:
The curl operator is not injective, hence there is no unique solution for the inverse curl. However, I just want to know the method by which we determine whether an inverse curl vector field does exist, given an existing vector field.

Mathematically speaking.

What is an inverse curl vector field? You mean you are given a vector field and you want to find out whether this is the curl of another vector field?
 
micromass said:
What is an inverse curl vector field? You mean you are given a vector field and you want to find out whether this is the curl of another vector field?

yes. whether it could be the curl of another vector field
 
greswd said:
yes. whether it could be the curl of another vector field

This is an important question that sadly does not have an easy answer. The answer depends crucially on the domain of the vector field. The idea is that the divergence of the curl is ##0##. This is a necessary condition for your answer to be positive. So if the divergence of your vector field is not zero, then it cannot be the curl of some field. The question is whether the converse holds.

The good news is that Poincare's lemma gives important conditions on when this is true. This says that whenever the domain (ie where your vector field is defined) is contractible/star shaped/convex, then it is true. So if your vector field is defined everywhere on ##\mathbb{R}^3## or on a convex domain ##[0,1]^3##, then checking whether the divergence is zero is enough to conclude it is the curl of a vector field.

This is cool, but Poincare's lemma sometimes fails when the domain is not so nice. If your domain is not nice, then the situation becomes more complicated and this is where De Rham's cohomology comes in.
 
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