What warms atmospheric nitrogen?

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    Atmospheric Nitrogen
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the mechanisms by which atmospheric nitrogen gains thermal energy. Participants explore the absorption characteristics of nitrogen, its role in the atmosphere, and the sources of heat that influence its temperature.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants inquire about specific electromagnetic frequencies that nitrogen absorbs to increase its temperature.
  • Others clarify that nitrogen (N2) has absorption and emission bands but does not absorb in the infrared range, thus not acting as a greenhouse gas, while nitrogen oxides do.
  • One participant seeks to understand the sources of thermal energy for nitrogen in the atmosphere, suggesting that it primarily comes from the ground and oceans.
  • Another participant emphasizes that the majority of solar radiation heats the surface, which then warms the atmosphere through conduction and convection.
  • There is a suggestion that the temperature lapse rate can be explained by the energy reaching the surface being greater than what is absorbed by the atmosphere.
  • Some participants argue that the focus on nitrogen is misplaced, asserting that the surface warming and its contact with the atmosphere are more critical factors.
  • It is noted that the atmosphere is in thermal equilibrium, with various molecules having the same temperature regardless of the mechanisms of heat exchange.
  • One participant points out that cooling by radiation is primarily conducted by greenhouse gases, while nitrogen is effective at convection but not at radiating heat.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the importance of nitrogen in the context of atmospheric warming, with some emphasizing its role and others suggesting it is less significant compared to surface interactions. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the specific mechanisms and contributions of nitrogen to atmospheric temperature.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations in the discussion regarding the assumptions made about thermal energy sources, the definitions of thermal equilibrium, and the roles of different gases in heat exchange processes. These aspects are not fully explored or resolved.

CharlesBoles
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Is there a particular narrow band of EM frequencies that nitrogen absorbs to increase its temperature?
 
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Nitrogen as N2 has it's absorption and emission bands but they are not in infrared, so it isn't a greenhouse gas.
Nitrogen Oxides are though.
 
Thanks, I'm aware of that. What I'm ultimately trying to figure out is where Nitrogen receives its thermal energy from in the atmosphere.
 
CharlesBoles said:
Thanks, I'm aware of that. What I'm ultimately trying to figure out is where Nitrogen receives its thermal energy from in the atmosphere.
Mostly from the ground and the oceans. This is the general case for the atmosphere: the vast majority of the solar radiation hitting the planet heats up the surface, and it is the surface that then heats up the atmosphere through conduction (and convection).
 
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DrClaude said:
Mostly from the ground and the oceans. This is the general case for the atmosphere: the vast majority of the solar radiation hitting the planet heats up the surface, and it is the surface that then heats up the atmosphere through conduction (and convection).
That makes sense and goes a way to explaining the temperature lapse rate. There's a lot more energy reaching the surface than is absorbed on the way through the atmosphere.
 
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You seem to be hung up on "nitrogen". That's really not the most important factor (which is that the surface warms and the atmosphere is in contact with it)
 
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Vanadium 50 said:
You seem to be hung up on "nitrogen". That's really not the most important factor (which is that the surface warms and the atmosphere is in contact with it)

Even more important, is that whatever the ways of gaining/losing heat may be, the atmosphere is in thermal equilibrium, and the various kinds of molecules will have the same temperature, no matter what does the convecting or radiating.

Another thing is that cooling by radiation is also mainly done by greenhouse gases, and at 10 km or so, the incoming heat would come for a large part from convecton, but the outgoing heat would be more in the form of radiation. Nitrogen does fine at convection, but is not good at radiating, so it would be warmer, if it couldn't exchange energy with the rest of the atmosphere.
 

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