What were the clues that the weak and EM force are the same

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the clues and reasoning that led scientists to propose that the weak and electromagnetic (EM) forces are manifestations of a single force at high energy levels. Participants explore the theoretical framework, historical context, and implications of this unification, while also questioning the nature of other forces, such as gravity.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Technical explanation, Conceptual clarification, Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses curiosity about the reasoning behind the unification of the weak and EM forces, noting a lack of explanation in their reading material.
  • Another participant suggests that early theorists developed mathematical theories based on experimental data from the weak force, leading to the conclusion that the weak force could be unified with electromagnetism through spontaneously broken gauge theories.
  • A different viewpoint emphasizes that while the weak and EM forces can be described within a single theoretical framework, they are not identical, similar to how magnets and electrically charged objects are distinct yet related.
  • Some participants mention the potential for further unification of the electroweak interaction with the strong interaction at higher energies, and the ultimate goal of unifying all forces, including gravity, into a theory of everything (TOE).
  • There is a recognition that the mathematical framework for gravity does not align with the theories describing the weak and EM forces, which complicates the unification process.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a mix of agreement and differing views regarding the nature of the unification of forces. While there is a shared understanding that the weak and EM forces can be unified at high energies, there is no consensus on the implications for gravity or the completeness of current theories.

Contextual Notes

Some limitations are noted, such as the dependence on specific theoretical frameworks and the unresolved nature of how gravity fits into the unification of forces. Additionally, the discussion reflects varying levels of understanding and background in particle physics among participants.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to those exploring particle physics, theoretical physics, or the historical development of unification theories in fundamental forces.

amenhotep
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Hello,
I've been reading a book on particle physics for the general audience, and as you might expect, I was left with a slew of nagging unanswered questions.
There was a chapter on gauge symmetry where the author described that the weak and the EM forces are the same force at some energy (>80GeV) and said that it is because of a symmetry breaking that the two forces appear unconnected today as the temperature of the universe has gone down since the big bang. I was expecting to be told the reason why the scientists (Schwinger and Glashow) thought that these forces were once merged, but the author didn't provide the reason. I was left wondering why only the weak and the EM forces were thought to be the same and not the weak and gravitational forces, for instance.
I have no background in particle physics. I'm reading just out of curiosity and would appreciate if someone can tell me the clues the mentioned scientists had to assume that the two forces were once merged.
Thanks
 
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I think it was something like this: there was a bit of experimental data on the weak force and theorists were trying to come up with a mathematical theory to explain the data. They had a class of elegant theories ("spontaneously broken gauge theories") that could describe a weak force, but these theories tended to unavoidably describe a weak force *plus* another much stronger force. They realized that this was OK if they could make the extra force be electromagnetism. They found the theory that made this happen and it turned out to match experiment.

The mathematics of gravity doesn't really fit this framework unfortunately, so there was no hope of getting the extra force to be gravity.
 
They are not the same in the same way magnets and electrically charged objects are not the same. They can be described as two different but connected concepts in a single theory describing both.

In the same way, it is expected that the electroweak interaction (=electromagnetic and weak interaction) can be unified with the strong interaction at an even larger energy ("grand unified theory", GUT), and the ultimate step would be a unification with gravity, probably at the scale of the Planck energy.
 
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Unifying GUT with gravity would result in the alleged holy grail of particle physics - the theory of everything [TOE]. That, of course, assumes nature would turn her head instead of tossing us an unexpected bone along the way [as she seems to delight in doing].
 

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