What's the difference between dx and ∂x?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the differences between the notations \(dx\) and \(\partial x\) in the context of calculus and differential notation. Participants explore the implications of these terms in relation to functions of multiple variables and the concept of infinitesimals.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant notes that \(dx \neq \partial x\) and explains the distinction between \(df\) and \(\partial f\) in terms of changes in variables.
  • Another participant suggests that \(x\) could depend on \(y\) or other variables, paralleling the relationship between \(df\) and \(\partial f\).
  • There is a question raised about the independence of \(x\) and \(y\), challenging the idea that \(x\) could depend on \(y\).
  • A later reply emphasizes that the notation \(\partial x\) is not commonly defined and is often seen as part of the notation for partial derivatives.
  • One participant critiques the use of the term "infinitesimal," suggesting it may not align with the understanding of the term in physics literature.
  • Another participant introduces a notation system to clarify the relationship between \(df\), \(dx\), and \(dy\) in the context of first-order approximations.
  • A final contribution discusses the meanings of different symbols like \(\Delta\), \(d\), and \(\delta\), suggesting a potential beauty in their graphical representation.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the meanings and implications of \(dx\) and \(\partial x\), with no consensus reached on the definitions or the relationship between the variables involved.

Contextual Notes

Some participants highlight the ambiguity in the term "infinitesimal" and its usage in mathematical contexts, indicating a lack of clarity in definitions and assumptions underlying the discussion.

izabo
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I understand from the equation:
df = {\frac{\partial f}{\partial x}} dx + {\frac{\partial f}{\partial y}} dy
that: dx \neq \partial x.

I understand why df \neq \partial f
(df is the change in f when the change in all the variables is infinitesimal, and \partial f is the change in f when the change in one vriable is infinitesimal and the others are constant, right?).

but doesn't both dx and \partial x mean an infinitesimal change in x? if so, why aren't they equal? if not what do they mean?
 
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x could depend on y, for example. Or both x and y could depend on some common other variables. In the same way as ##df \neq \partial f##, ##dx \neq \partial x##
 
mfb said:
x could depend on y, for example. Or both x and y could depend on some common other variables. In the same way as ##df \neq \partial f##, ##dx \neq \partial x##

how could x depend on y? aren't they both independent variables?
 
Who said that?
 
mfb said:
Who said that?

does it really matter?

btw i meant that for f(x,y) if that wasn't clear.
 
izabo said:
df = {\frac{\partial f}{\partial x}} dx + {\frac{\partial f}{\partial y}} dy
that: dx \neq \partial x.
If you want to make sense of this for a function ##f:\mathbb R^2\to\mathbb R## (without using definitions from differential geometry), then you should define ##df:\mathbb R^4\to\mathbb R## by
$$df(x,y,z,w)=D_1f(x,y)z+D_2f(x,y)w$$ for all ##x,y,z,w\in\mathbb R##. This ensures that for all ##x,y,dx,dy\in\mathbb R##, we have
$$df(x,y,dx,dy)=D_1f(x,y)dx+D_2f(x,y)dy.$$ What you wrote can be considered a sloppy notation for this result.

This is a way to make sense of df, dx and dy. I don't think I have ever seen anyone try to make sense of ##\partial x##. It's just a small part of the notation ##\partial f/\partial x##, which means ##D_1f##. I find the notation ##\partial f/\partial x## misleading, since it hides the fact that ##D_1f## (the partial derivative of f with respect to the first variable slot) is the same function no matter what symbols we usually use to represent the numbers we plug into ##f##.

Note that with this definition, there's no need for dx and dy to be "infinitesimal". What does that even mean? I know that there's a definition of that term, but I haven't studied it, and I'm pretty sure that almost no one of the authors of physics books who use that term have either. If you see the term "infinitesimal" in a physics book, you should assume that it has nothing to do with infinitesimals. You should interpret it as a code that let's you know that the next thing that follows is a first-order approximation. For example, to say that for infinitesimal x, we have ##e^x=1+x##, is to say (in a weird and confusing way) that there's a function ##R:\mathbb R\to\mathbb R## such that ##e^x=1+x+R(x)## for all ##x\in\mathbb R##, and ##R(x)/x\to x## as ##x\to 0##.

df(x,y,z,w) is a first-order approximation of the difference f(x+z,y+w)-f(x,y). So if we want to be weird and confusing, we can say that for infinitesimal z and w, we have f(x+z,y+w)-f(x,y) = df(x,y,z,w). If we want to cause some additional confusion, we can use the notations dx and dy for the real numbers z and w, and then drop the (x,y,z,w) from df(x,y,z,w), and the (x,y) from ##D_1f(x,y)## and ##D_2f(x,y)##. Then we would be saying that for infinitesimal dx and dy, we have
$$f(x+dx,y+dy)-f(x,y)=df=D_1f dy+ D_2f dx =\frac{\partial f}{\partial x}dx+\frac{\partial f}{\partial y}dy.$$
 
Last edited:
Δ = difference

d = Δ but small difference, infinitesimal

δ = d but along a curve

Mathematical symbols are always graphics.I’m not sure if that will be true, but it would be beautiful.
 

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