What's Wrong with Refractive Index Query? | Wikipedia

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the discrepancies observed in the calculation of the refractive index of water based on its relative permittivity and permeability, as presented in Wikipedia. Participants explore the implications of frequency on these values and the broader context of refraction across different electromagnetic wave types.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant notes that Wikipedia states the refractive index is calculated using the formula n^2 = (Relative Permittivity) x (Relative Permeability), but finds a discrepancy when applying this to water.
  • Another participant suggests that the electric permittivity varies with frequency, indicating that the values being compared are from different frequency ranges, which may explain the discrepancy.
  • A participant mentions that calculating water's refractive index via electron structure calculations remains unresolved, highlighting the complexity of water's properties.
  • There is a discussion about whether electric fields would refract when transitioning from air to water, with a participant confirming that electromagnetic waves at optical frequencies will refract.
  • Further inquiry is made regarding the refraction of radio waves, x-rays, and gamma-rays in water, with a participant explaining that the law of refraction is based on conservation principles and does not restrict refraction to specific wavelengths, although practical considerations like absorption may apply.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying views on the relationship between refractive index and frequency, with some agreeing on the complexity of water's properties while others raise questions about the behavior of different types of electromagnetic waves. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the exact nature of these relationships.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights the dependence of electric permittivity on frequency and the challenges in calculating refractive indices for certain materials, particularly water. There are also considerations regarding the assumptions made about absorption when discussing refraction across different wavelengths.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to those studying optics, electromagnetism, or material properties, particularly in the context of how different frequencies interact with various media.

RichRobX
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Wkipedia gives refractive index

n^2 = (Relative Permittivity) x (Relative Permeability)

but taking water as an example
n = 1.33
Relative Permeability = 1.0 (roughly)
Relative Permittivity = 80.4

1.33^2 = 1.77 Which is NOT 80.4


what's wrong?
 
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Keep in mind that the electric permittivity varies with frequency. You are comparing the values for an optical frequency, compared to a very low (A few hundred Hz typically) frequency, hence the apparent discrepancy.

The true value of the electric permittivity at optical frequencies is reliably obtained by measuring the refractive index.

Claude.
 
IIRC we still can't calculate water's refractive index right via electron structure calculations. Water truly is mysterious stuff.
 
Electric fields

Ok thanks that's cleared things up somewhat.

Does this mean that an electric field would be refracted upon going from say air into water?
 
An electromagnetic wave oscillating at optical frequencies (i.e. light) will refract, yes.

Claude.
 
claude,

Would radio waves, x-rays and gamma-rays also refract when entering water (guess I'm assuming no absorption which i shouldn't, but still).
 
The law of refraction is derived from conservation of energy and momentum constraints at a boundary between two media with different refractive indices. Nothing in the derivation explicitly forbids refraction above or below a certain wavelength.

These restrictions are placed by more 'practical' considerations such as absorption.

Claude.
 
uhhhh so then yes.
 
  • #10
Indeed

Claude.
 

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