Where does gravity get its energy from?

  • Context: Undergrad 
  • Thread starter Thread starter AveekB
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Energy Gravity
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the origins of energy associated with gravitational forces, particularly in the context of celestial bodies like the Earth and the Moon. Participants explore concepts of gravitational potential energy, work done by gravitational forces, and the implications of general relativity and hypothetical particles like gravitons.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants suggest that gravitational potential energy (GPE) is a key concept, where the Moon loses GPE as it moves closer to Earth, converting it into kinetic energy.
  • Others argue that the notion of GPE is somewhat artificial, created to simplify calculations, and that a deeper understanding may lie in general relativity and the curvature of spacetime.
  • A participant raises the question of whether a fundamental particle, such as the graviton, mediates gravitational forces and transfers energy between massive bodies.
  • One participant explains that gravitational potential energy is acquired when work is done to lift an object to a height, such as an apple being lifted before it falls.
  • Another participant discusses the energy required to separate two massive objects against their mutual gravitational pull, questioning the source of energy in the context of the universe's origin.
  • A later reply emphasizes that for circular orbits, no work is done since the gravitational force is perpendicular to displacement, contrasting this with elliptical orbits where work is done as the object moves closer to the Sun.
  • One participant posits that gravitational potential energy was first acquired at the creation of the universe.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express multiple competing views regarding the source of energy associated with gravitational forces, and the discussion remains unresolved with no consensus reached on the fundamental nature of gravitational energy.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight various assumptions, such as the dependence on definitions of energy and gravitational potential energy, and the implications of general relativity, which remain unresolved.

AveekB
Messages
1
Reaction score
0
A large, very large body like Earth exerts a gravitational force on moon or a smaller object and there is displacement (neglect displacement of earth). Thus work is done. So where does the energy come from to do this work?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
Well classically, the idea is that the moon would need a certain amount of work done on it if it were to escape to infinity, or equivalently it would need sufficient kinetic energy to completely escape the gravitational pull of the earth. Therefore we create this notion of 'gravitational potential energy'. When the moon is attracted to the Earth it loses some of its GPE which is converted to its kinetic energy. In other words the moon becomes more constrained as it moves inwards. It has less 'potential' or freedom than if it were a free body.

However, its a bit of a fudge really to make the energy equation balance and to make calculations easier. I suspect the real insight is general relativity, where the presence of mass is curving spacetime so that particles traveling on geodesics appear to be traveling in curved paths around a massive body. There is a notion of mass/energy equivalence but I am not sure how it applies in this case. I tried to follow the Susskind lectures on youtube and its pretty tricky stuff, so hopefully someone else can illuminate us here?

The other thing to consider is whether there is a fundamental particle(the graviton) that mediates the force. If there is such particle then it is this that is actually transferring energy between the Earth and the moon.
 
As a result of the fact that an object is under the influence of the Earth's gravity, it has a form of energy called gravitational potential energy. So when you drop an apple and it falls to the ground, the energy needed to do the work comes from this gravitational potential energy.

Now you may be wondering how exactly the apple got the gravitational potential energy to begin with, since energy isn't free! Well, the apple acquired that energy because work was done on it to lift it to that height.

I hope this helps!
 
Say you had a massive lump of stuff and pulled it apart into two equal pieces. You would apply a force to separate them under their mutual gravitational pull.

If they were originally together this is where the energy came from. It came from the energy applied to get them separted to some distance. Does this make sense?

So you might ask, if the Universe began as some small point where did the energy come from the separate all the pieces?
 
AveekB said:
A large, very large body like Earth exerts a gravitational force on moon or a smaller object and there is displacement (neglect displacement of earth). Thus work is done. So where does the energy come from to do this work?
Be a little careful here. For a circular orbit there is no work done since the force is always perpendicular to the displacement. Work is only done when the force has a component parallel to the displacement. A better example is a comet where the orbit is highly elliptical.

The comet starts far away and falls closer to the sun, work is done, the gravitational potential energy is reduced and the kinetic energy is increased. The reverse happens as the comet goes out away from the sun.
 
Ultimately, the GPE was first acquired when the universe was created.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 73 ·
3
Replies
73
Views
7K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 69 ·
3
Replies
69
Views
8K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 14 ·
Replies
14
Views
2K
  • · Replies 35 ·
2
Replies
35
Views
3K
  • · Replies 16 ·
Replies
16
Views
3K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
7K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
1K
  • · Replies 10 ·
Replies
10
Views
2K