Where does life originate from?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the origins of life, exploring whether life arises from chemical processes, specific molecules like DNA or RNA, or if there are unknown mechanisms involved. Participants question the definitions of life and the criteria that distinguish living organisms from non-living matter, touching on biochemical processes, evolutionary potential, and the ambiguity surrounding the concept of life.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that life is fundamentally linked to DNA and proteins, contingent on suitable environmental conditions.
  • Others question whether there is a purely chemical process leading to life or if science lacks understanding of certain mechanisms.
  • A participant suggests that the processes within cells are chemical in nature but acknowledges the lack of detailed knowledge.
  • There is a debate about the definition of the "source of life," with some arguing it is ambiguous and others seeking clarification on what constitutes the most basic living structure.
  • Some participants assert that no single molecule can be considered alive, highlighting the blurry boundary between life and non-life.
  • The RNA world hypothesis is mentioned as a potential framework for understanding the origins of life.
  • Discussions arise about the criteria for being considered alive, including the ability to reproduce and evolve, with differing opinions on whether self-awareness is a necessary condition.
  • Participants express that there is no widely accepted definition of life, leading to ongoing disagreements.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the definitions of life or the origins of life, with multiple competing views and ongoing debates about the criteria that distinguish living organisms from non-living entities.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights the complexity and ambiguity surrounding the definitions of life and the processes that may lead to its emergence, with various assumptions and interpretations presented by participants.

  • #61
Borek said:
There is no doubt that whatever happens in the cell is just a chemistry, but we are still far from knowing all details.

[PLAIN]http://star.psy.ohio-state.edu/coglab/Pictures/miracle.gif
http://star.psy.ohio-state.edu/coglab/Miracle.html
 
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  • #62
granpa said:
you haven't been following the thread have you.

Sure I have, just seemed like you were suggesting that if someone's beating their wife, you should look the other way.
I guess maybe I misinterpreted it. I was assuming that it was a known fact that the person beat their wife in the past.
 
  • #63
you've never heard that joke before?
groucho marx is famous for it.
you have heard of groucho marx haven't you?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loaded_question
A loaded question is a question which contains a controversial assumption such as a presumption of guilt.[1]
Such questions are used rhetorically, so that the question limits direct replies to be those that serve the questioner's agenda.[2] The traditional example is the question "Have you stopped beating your wife?"
 
  • #64
No, that's classic example of the question that if you decide to answer (especially in terms of Yes/No), you always put yourself in the bad light.
 
  • #65
mishrashubham said:
As for me, I think I can describe life as an organized set of chemical reactions whose sole purpose is to make sure that these reactions continue to exist.
What instrument measures purpose, in what units is purpose/intent expressed, and what do you use to calibrate the instrument?

Life, then, covers rocks weathering, stars aging, atoms interacting, and most anything then. Isn't that definition too broad? If you were to send an unmanned probe to Mars, what sort of sensor, what instrument, what detector would test best for life and, most important, what indication would it give for the absence of life. How do we test for past life especially in the case of Mars?
 
  • #66
organic life doesn't have a purpose in that sense but it does have a function that it is optimized for.

(its a local optimum not a global optimum)
 
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  • #67
minorwork said:
What instrument measures purpose, in what units is purpose/intent expressed, and what do you use to calibrate the instrument?
If we draw a line at a certain level of organized complexity that involves replication, and call all those things to the right of that line as "alive" and all the things to the left as "not alive", then that's easy. Use that very line to "measure" life.
 
  • #68
Siv said:
If we draw a line at a certain level of organized complexity that involves replication, and call all those things to the right of that line as "alive" and all the things to the left as "not alive", then that's easy. Use that very line to "measure" life.
So my Mars probe has to look for a line and find things on the right side of the line. Probably better things to look for. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_on_Mars#Viking_experiments". One showed an increase in CO2 from Martian soil being exposed to water and nutrients. The designer of this experiment, called the Labeled Release experiment, said this indicated life. Maybe, but other scientists dispute his conclusion since the CO2 evolved could have resulted from a non-life explanation, that being the presence of super oxidants in the soil.

granpa said:
organic life doesn't have a purpose in that sense but it does have a function that it is optimized for.

(its a local optimum not a global optimum)
How does organic life know of this function and when it has achieved optimization?

To clarify what you mean by organic, do you mean containing the molecules that the Viking experiment did NOT detect with its mass spectrometer and gas chromatograph? Are you referring to general carbon chemistry?

I have to ask this because of the increased ability of the self-replicating programs known as computer viruses, and especially the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuxnet" that can be said to be optimized for its function of replicating and installing a PLC rootkit in industrial software in order to cause damage to the process under the PLC's control. Can a replicating, evolving computer program be alive?
 
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  • #69
minorwork said:
So my Mars probe has to look for a line and find things on the right side of the line. Probably better things to look for. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_on_Mars#Viking_experiments". One showed an increase in CO2 from Martian soil being exposed to water and nutrients. The designer of this experiment, called the Labeled Release experiment, said this indicated life. Maybe, but other scientists dispute his conclusion since the CO2 evolved could have resulted from a non-life explanation, that being the presence of super oxidants in the soil.
Sure.
My point was that, any search for life should depend on how we define it.

A lot of people assume that something magical appears in an organism if its alive. Which is not true, really.
 
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  • #70
Evo said:
You have already been given excellent explanations above. bobze explained it very well in post 26. You are hand waving, which doesn't belong in this forum.

No, not for my specific question. I was not hand waving, or if it appears that way it was not my intention.

granpa's post #32 put things into perspective, and #33 answers my question.
Thanks to grandpa for a good explanation.
 

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