Lingusitics Where is English the Official Language ?

[zoobyshoe]

I too was raised in Minnesota and I too heard that tripe. It's tripe. People from outside Minnesota think that the Minnesotans they run across have a marked accent. Maybe not as strong as that exemplified in the movie Fargo, but definitely there.

Think of it this way: You probably played duck, duck, gray duck as a kid rather than play duck, duck, goose (that's the name of the game in the other 49 states). The peculiarities of the way Minnesotans talk, think, and act are not apparent until you move away. They are immediately apparent to someone who moves in.

I wasn't born there. I just lived there eight years. Once in a while I'd notice a funny phrase, a funny vowel sound. If I mentioned it, they'd launch into their full blown imitation of a Minnesota accent, trying to be humorous. No one I met actually had that (Fargo) accent, though. In Mpls/St.Paul everyone on the street talks pretty much the way the cast of any TV show talks. Go down to the Rainbow Bar on Hennepin and Lake (if it's still there) and you might as well be listening to the cast of ER or the cast of NCIS for all anyone's accent stands out.

Yes, there'll be terminology surprises, like pop verses soda, but terminology is a consideration separate from accent. Now, I can't speak for Shakopee or Grand Marais, or any town outside the Twin Cities. If you're from a place like that, it could be you do have an accent.

People can judge for themselves. Who better epitomizes Minnesota than Garrison Keillor, and does he really, in real life, have an accent worth mentioning? :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FBBet3RLPI

According to wikipedia (standard caveats appy), here is "where the local accent is most similar to General American:"

Yes, this same map is in the article I linked to in my post to Ivan. The amoebic area described is just south of Minnesota, of course, and there's no reason it shouldn't have a pseudopod reaching up to include the twin cities.

According this article at pbs.com, http://www.pbs.org/speak/seatosea/standardamerican/,

The "unaccented" variety that is sometimes called Standard American or Standard Speech is one taught by accent coaches. This form is actually an idealized dialect - meaning, it's not really spoken anywhere, but instead is acquired through professional training. Actors and professional communicators (including some from the Midlands!) often take classes in "accent reduction" to lose any regional or social sounds in their speech. It takes a lot of work.​

This probably explains what I was saying to Ivan about the accent in old movies. I think what has happened over time is that the "ideal" accent being taught has merged with the Midwest/California accent, such that you actually can find millions of people who speak it in real life.

 

[zoobyshoe]

True, but it is also the reason why some refer to the dialect as "Mexican".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Spanish

No, Texans calling it "Mexican" doesn't emerge from awareness of it as a dialect or any such academic insight. They call it "Mexican" just because it's what Mexicans are speaking. There are a lot of people here in San Diego who do the same thing. It drives Mexicans bonkers because they universally think of themselves as speaking Spanish, just as Americans think of themselves as speaking English, not "American".

 

[I like Serena]

We do like to joke around with idioms though, that stands as a pole above water

That's a truth like a cow. ;)

 

[D H]

In Mpls/St.Paul everyone on the street talks pretty much the way the cast of any TV show talks.

I can still hear it. The accent is admittedly reduced, but it is still there. There's nothing special there; accents tend to be attenuated in many large cities.

Now, I can't speak for Shakopee

Its a suburb of St. Paul, so they're going to speak more or less the same as people from St. Paul (which is a bit different from Minneapolis).

or Grand Marais

They don't have a Minnesota accent. They have a Ranger accent. Very distinct.

Ranger accent:





Minnesota accent, except he doesn't think he has one:

Who better epitomizes Minnesota than Garrison Keillor, and does he really, in real life, have an accent worth mentioning?

Well, yes, he does. It is diminished, but he is a radio personality after all. As far as who better epitomizes the Minnesota accent: Sarah Palin, of course!

Yes, this same map is in the article I linked to in my post to Ivan. The amoebic area described is just south of Minnesota, of course, and there's no reason it shouldn't have a pseudopod reaching up to include the twin cities.

Minnesotans speak a different dialect from the Midlands dialect. Minnesotan is a variant of what wikipedia calls North Central American English.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

That's a truth like a cow. ;)

That's a Robin Hood point but I fin' it aint wot was Damien Hirst meant by the bleedin' spread of engish.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

the mass migration of Midwestern farmers to California

The dustbowl, I presume? So bad farming practices led to the national standard language?

Had it not been for the farmers, I guess I would be calling you amigo?

And I agree with your comment regarding Spanish. Mexicans are the first to tell you that there is no such thing as "speaking Mexican".

 

[zoobyshoe]

The idea all is flattening towards a world language is not necessarily true, there are counter-tendencies as well.

Counter tendencies, meh, yes, but the flattening force will prevail, unless peoples are cut off from each other to develop in isolation. The current trend is toward unification. I'm sitting here talking about language with people from all over the world without leaving my house, for Cripe's sake*.

Maybe will come back on that but now I can't resist mentioning 'European English' the lingua franca that develops for communication between non-English speakers, many with a limited command of it.

The kind of expression in this language can be something like "I fakely have known actually he assists to a reunion". All the words are English but hardly any are used correctly - the above means "I have been vaguely informed that right now he is participating in a meeting".

Pidgin. Linguistics gives pidgin a one generation life. It will either die, or the next generation will have a creole worked out.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pidgin

*A New Hampshirism created to avoid taking the Lord's name in vain, while still expressing the same degree of emphasis. (Actually its use may extend to Vermont and Maine as well, I'm not sure.)

 

[zoobyshoe]

The dustbowl, I presume? So bad farming practices led to the national standard language?

Had it not been for the farmers, I guess I would be calling you amigo?

No soy seguro que es fue "El Dustbowl". I think the mass migration actually started before that. The population of LA rose from 5000 in the 1870's to 100,000 around 1900. The underhanded water dealings that were worked into the film "Chinatown" actually seem to have taken place circa 1900 as well. (All that from the wiki article on the history of LA.) I do know that John Steinbeck wrote many stories about immigrants to a California Valley; people drawn there because the farming was good, though not particularly from the midwest.

http://www.edstephan.org/Steinbeck/past.html

At any rate, you're right that before this migration the predominant culture here was Spanish and Catholic. It was, in 1870, not that far removed from Mission Culture, i.e. the Mexicans managing the Indians. In the 1830's White people only came to San Diego to buy cow hides from the Mexican Ranchos round about. The bay was a good place to shelter a merchant ship, so the Mexican cattle ranchers brought their hides here from all around to sell them to the Gringo shippers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Years_Before_the_Mast

Now, in 2011, you don't run into cows much anymore in San Diego.

Point being, though, Southern California doesn't have a very long history of English speaking, compared to most other parts of the country. English wasn't established and already evolving here for centuries the way it was anywhere you pick on the East Coast and in the South.

 

[cbetanco]

Point being, though, Southern California doesn't have a very long history of English speaking, compared to most other parts of the country. English wasn't established and already evolving here for centuries the way it was anywhere you pick on the East Coast and in the South.

You can't live in the past

 

[zoobyshoe]

That's a monkey-sandwich story, I've never seen that before

We do like to joke around with idioms though, that stands as a pole above water

Unique children of a Monique mother.

 

[zoobyshoe]

You can't live in the past

Hello. We're talking about language.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnHv7NGWb0k

 

[cbetanco]

Hello. We're talking about language.

HAHA, ya... That video is also old. I stand by my statement. I'm from so cal, where movies are from, so we must be speaking the real english.

 

[zoobyshoe]

HAHA, ya... That video is also old. I stand by my statement. I'm from so cal, where movies are from, so we must be speaking the real english.

Sorry, your post is already 5 minutes old. I can't answer it or I'll just be living in the past.

 

[cbetanco]

Sorry, your post is already 5 minutes old. I can't answer it or I'll just be living in the past.

Touche. Oh wait, that's not English

 

[cbetanco]

But seriously, I hear younger people from, say, the east cost have less and less of an east coast accent, and we are all kind of sounding like we speak the same dialect of English here in the states. Of course, its just a trend I notice, some people still have a very heavy accent from other parts of the country. But I find it interesting how a small land like the UK has (seems like that to me) more variety in accents than the english spoken in the US

 

[zoobyshoe]

I can still hear it. The accent is admittedly reduced, but it is still there. There's nothing special there; accents tend to be attenuated in many large cities.


Its a suburb of St. Paul, so they're going to speak more or less the same as people from St. Paul (which is a bit different from Minneapolis).

If you hear a Mpls accent, and also a difference between Mpls and St Paul, I'm pretty sure you're hearing things.

Cities, actually, are often the hub of particular accents. Take Boston, New York, Baltimore, and Chicago. The accents are thickest the closer you are to the native core of the city. (The same is probably true of cities in the South, but I don't know the South and can't say for sure. I do know a New Orleans accent is quite different than an Atlanta accent, despite the fact both immediately and primarily stand out as "Southern".)

They don't have a Minnesota accent. They have a Ranger accent. Very distinct.

Ranger accent:

Minnesota accent, except he doesn't think he has one:

These two are definite accents that stand out. Regardless, they are not the caricature that you hear when people imitate a "Minnesota" accent. The second guy doesn't think he has an accent because he doesn't recognize the caricature as representing how he actually speaks. And he's right. Which goes back to my original point to Ivan: everyone in Minneapolis can imitate what a Minnesota accent is supposed to sound like, but no one in Minnesota actually talks that way.

Well, yes, he does. It is diminished, but he is a radio personality after all.

Thing is, if anything, he emphasizes the Minnesota edge for "A Prairie Home Companion", then reverts to his real accent when off the air. The show is essentially about being Minnesotan. He is the Mark Twain of Minnesota, as it were. There, in that video, I don't hear any accent worth mentioning.

Minnesotans speak a different dialect from the Midlands dialect.

They would, since the "Midlands" is in England.

Minnesotan is a variant of what wikipedia calls North Central American English.

This is what both your "Ranger" and your "Minnesotan" are speaking (the "Ranger" just has a thicker accent), and probably what they were shooting for in "Fargo". You don't actually hear this in the Twin Cities. What you hear in Mpls/St.Paul is pretty much what you hear in Des Moines and in Omaha, which is what you hear in movies and on TV. Right now an Indiana Jones movie is playing on my TV. People in Mpls, Des Moines, and Omaha all sound pretty much like Harrison Ford as Indiana Jones, and pretty much like the average white person in San Diego and LA.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

But seriously, I hear younger people from, say, the east cost have less and less of an east coast accent, and we are all kind of sounding like we speak the same dialect of English here in the states. Of course, its just a trend I notice, some people still have a very heavy accent from other parts of the country. But I find it interesting how a small land like the UK has (seems like that to me) more variety in accents than the english spoken in the US

Population bottleneck. People have been living in the UK for thousands of years whereas the US was settles by a small group of people a few hundred years ago.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

*A New Hampshirism created to avoid taking the Lord's name in vain, while still expressing the same degree of emphasis. (Actually its use may extend to Vermont and Maine as well, I'm not sure.)

If you don't believe in Jiminy Cripes, Gosh will darn you to heck.

 

[zoobyshoe]

If you don't believe in Jiminy Cripes, Gosh will darn you to heck.

I guess I will be darned. I thought his last name was Cripe. Hence: "...for Cripe's sake,".

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

I guess I will be darned. I thought his last name was Cripe. Hence: "...for Cripe's sake,".

That's NH dialect. Here in the People's Republic we say Cripes' sake.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

I think england because english originatd there

This was addressed earlier in the thread, England does not have an official language I.e a language defined by government as the language of the country.

 

[Monique]

All government documents in England are in English right? That would indicate they do have a official language, although not on paper. I don't think they'll start sending out documents to their citizens in Swahili?

 

[SW VandeCarr]

All government documents in England are in English right? That would indicate they do have a official language, although not on paper. I don't think they'll start sending out documents to their citizens in Swahili?

The UK government does issue documents in Welsh through the Wales Office. Welsh has an equal status with English in the UK according to the link below.

http://www.walesoffice.gov.uk/about/welsh-language-scheme/

 

[zoobyshoe]

That's NH dialect. Here in the People's Republic we say Cripes' sake.

See, right there. The way you pronounce it, it sounds like you're saying "Cripe's" not "Cripes' ". Your enunciation is idiosynchratic.