I Who would win a perfect game of chess?

PAllen

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I'm wondering why you say strongly solved when en passant and castling (which are allowed in some positions with 7 pieces or less) are ignored from the current tablebases. Could you please explain what you have in mind?
en passant is considered in current tablebases. It is true that castling is not considered because it is so rarely relevant for endgames and because the program using the tablebase can account for this with minimal extra compute time (it already knows if castling is allowed, and just needs to generate trees of when to do castling, with all other evaluation based on tablebase probes). It is also true that the method used for en passant would trivially handle castling, it has just been found to be uninteresting to do so.

So a more precise statement would be that current top engines using 7 piece tablebases can play any 7 piece position perfectly. And that existing tablebases technology could readily be extended to include castling directly. Or that existing tablebases directly strongly solve any 7 piece position in which castling is no longer possible.
 
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fluidistic

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Thank you PAllen for the information.
 
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White has the advantage of choosing the first offensive move, black has the advantage of choosing the first defensive move.
Seems quite balanced, am i missing something?
 
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White has the advantage of choosing the first offensive move, black has the advantage of choosing the first defensive move.
Seems quite balanced, am i missing something?
Where do you see any balance in that?
 

rcgldr

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Somewhat off topic - I don't know if AlphaZero's learning method affected the results of white versus black.

The pdf file linked to still mentions AlphaZero versus Stockfish 8, at at time when Stockfish 9 was already released. Stockfish version 10 is now released. In addition, Stockfish opening and end game tables were removed in the earlier matches, and Stockfish was force to make moves at fixed rate, rather than allowing it to manage it's average number of moves per unit time. AlphaZero "trained" on a large number of processors and played on relatively expensive hardware. More on the earlier matches are mentioned in this article.

https://en.chessbase.com/post/alpha-zero-comparing-orang-utans-and-apples

StockFish's and other newer chess programs main improvement is move tree pruning allowing them to look 25 to 27 moves or more ahead, which is why they've exceeded the best human players some years ago.

SIde note - I have an old version of Deep Junior 8, but its interface is StockFish compatible, so I'm able to run StockFish, but I'm using the opening and endgame tables from whatever was available at the time of Deep Junior 8. Considering StockFish is free, it's a nice way to upgrade an existing chess program if it has a compatible interface.
 
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PAllen

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Somewhat off topic - I don't know if AlphaZero's learning method affected the results of white versus black.

The pdf file linked to still mentions AlphaZero versus Stockfish 8, at at time when Stockfish 9 was already released. Stockfish version 10 is now released. In addition, Stockfish opening and end game tables were removed in the earlier matches, and Stockfish was force to make moves at fixed rate, rather than allowing it to manage it's average number of moves per unit time. AlphaZero "trained" on a large number of processors and played on relatively expensive hardware. More on the earlier matches are mentioned in this article.

https://en.chessbase.com/post/alpha-zero-comparing-orang-utans-and-apples

StockFish's and other newer chess programs main improvement is move tree pruning allowing them to look 25 to 27 moves or more ahead, which is why they've exceeded the best human players some years ago.
Stockfish 8 was the latest version available when most of the research was done.

They did a shorter test on stockfish 9 towards the end of the work, wither results similar to stockfish 8.

In the earliest work they used default stockfish settings except for time control, and a poor choice of hash size. This does not mean no opening book, it means the default one rather than a designated tournament opening book

In the more recent matches,all of these weaknesses were rectified. They used tournament time controls, good program settings, as similar hardware as was possible, and endgame tablebases. They had runs with default opening behavior and also using best tournament book recommended by stockfish experts. Alphazero still won all scenarios.

The rating difference between stockfish 10 and 9 is rather small. It would be very interesting to chess players to a match with stockfish 10, but no interest really to deep mind. The research goal was never specifically to produce and maintain a strong computer chess program. Instead, it was to demonstrate achieving beyond human playing performance on multiple games, with no starting knowledge except the rules, by self play.

See my post #75 for additional info.
 
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PeroK

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White has the advantage of choosing the first offensive move, black has the advantage of choosing the first defensive move.
Seems quite balanced, am i missing something?
You're missing everything to do with the game of chess.
 

phyzguy

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White has the advantage of choosing the first offensive move, black has the advantage of choosing the first defensive move.
Seems quite balanced, am i missing something?
How about we have a duel. We stand 10 feet apart. I shoot first, then you shoot. Completely balanced, right?
 
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How about we have a duel. We stand 10 feet apart. I shoot first, then you shoot. Completely balanced, right?
You cant win a game of chess in 1 move.
 

PAllen

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You cant win a game of chess in 1 move.
Are you familiar with the chess term zugzwang? At present is simply unknown whether or not the starting position is a deep zugzwang for whoever moves first. Essentially no one thinks this is likely, but there is no evidence beyond experience from imperfect play that it is false. Your argument simply has no logical force whatsoever.
 

BWV

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This is the latest 1000 games between AZ and SF8. There is no apparant advantage for the second move in Shogi or Go. but a clear difference between AZ's results playing as white vs black. I dont think it has been released, but the results of AZ's training games would be interesting in this regard.

It does seem reasonable to view these games as an approaching perfect play, much like if we trained AZ to play checkers it would get close to the solved game results

https://deepmind.com/blog/alphazero-shedding-new-light-grand-games-chess-shogi-and-go/
 

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PAllen

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This is the latest 1000 games between AZ and SF8. There is no apparant advantage for the second move in Shogi or Go. but a clear difference between AZ's results playing as white vs black. I dont think it has been released, but the results of AZ's training games would be interesting in this regard.

It does seem reasonable to view these games as an approaching perfect play, much like if we trained AZ to play checkers it would get close to the solved game results

https://deepmind.com/blog/alphazero-shedding-new-light-grand-games-chess-shogi-and-go/
I agree this is evidence, but I don't take it as strongly as you do.

1) As I argue in my post #75, there is clear evidence AZ's play is not perfect, so you can't draw any firm conclusions about perfect play from it.
2) I actually think it is very unlikely that AZ training on checkers would replicate the solved play. Of course, unless someone does this, it is anybody's guess.
 
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PeroK

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A resignation is not a played win.
How many top level games end in checkmate? Almost none. Almost all wins are resignations, or a loss on time.
 
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Almost all wins are resignations, or a loss on time.
Resignations because they know they are going to lose, you dont know you are going to lose after white makes the first move.
 

PAllen

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Resignations because they know they are going to lose, you dont know you are going to lose after white makes the first move.
You might if you are Panno playing Fischer in 1970,:smile:
 
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Resignations because they know they are going to lose, you dont know you are going to lose after white makes the first move.
With equally skilled players :smile:
 

PeroK

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Resignations because they know they are going to lose, you dont know you are going to lose after white makes the first move.
That's immaterial. You can win a game of chess in one move. Fischer did. It's in the record books. A win is a win.

If you'd said you can't checkmate an opponent in one move, that would be different.
 

Klystron

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How about we have a duel. We stand 10 feet apart. I shoot first, then you shoot. Completely balanced, right?
In fairness, this duel analogy does not include any defensive moves or strategy. Actual duels of this form supposedly proved "honor" of both duelists; a weird form of trust that the opponents deliberately miss their shots while standing upright and still as targets. Sheer idiocy IMO particularly if the duel was caused by one person calling the opponent untrustworthy. (See A. Hamilton vs. A. Burr.)

Dueling with swords, staffs, knives, or bare-handed allows defensive moves, tactics and defensive strategies. Physical strength, training, speed and stamina determine outcomes to a large extent, particularly expertise in fencing with swords and knives. According to some sources, this expert advantage led to the stupidity of pistol dueling as described. Little skill required to miss or stand still; just steady nerves.
 

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