Who's tried Ungrading in STEM courses?

[symbolipoint]

I just started watching that video. I am only about 15 seconds into it, and already I firmly disagree with the first research claim; that students become disinterested under the conditions to earn a letter grade. Do I/we really need to see the rest of the video?

 

[Andy Resnick]

Why must they? How high was the class'es lowest score? Did your sense of judgement tell you that some students who learned enough still were part of the curve's lower end, and because of that place in the data, they need to have grade F or D?

By defintion, 'grading on a curve' means that the distribution of grades is that of a normal distribution; the same percentage of students given a grade of 'A' is the same percentage of students given a grade of 'F'. Otherwise, it's not grading on a curve but some other engineered distribution.

 

[symbolipoint]

By defintion, 'grading on a curve' means that the distribution of grades is that of a normal distribution; the same percentage of students given a grade of 'A' is the same percentage of students given a grade of 'F'. Otherwise, it's not grading on a curve but some other engineered distribution.

That is helpful and now I really do not like that strict kind of "grading on the curve". This must be why many schools and institutions use a predetermined strict grading scale to assign letter grades of A, B, C, D, F. This way, the teacher assesses each test or quiz item the way he sees fit, and determines what the score is for the test or quiz, and likewise for other work assigned to the class members. At the end, the teach has maybe, percentage scores for all the students. I would imagine justifiably, any students in such a system who received a score like maybe 85%, are likely not getting D or F. But could be a C, or could be a B.

This "ungrading" business, I do not like. The only exception is for if the student wishes at the beginning or some such, to do a course for credit without earning a grade at the end. (Like at a c.c., student might visit the admissions and records office and switch his grade option for a course from Letter grade, to credit/no credit as long as the choice is allowed both for the course and the institution's official time limit.)

 

[Andy Resnick]

If my interpretation is correct, then one can argue that it shows that grades serve as an incentive to do better and, simultaneously, as a ustification to slack off. [...]

Grading can serve this important function, for sure.

 

[Andy Resnick]

This "ungrading" business, I do not like. The only exception is for if the student wishes at the beginning or some such, to do a course for credit without earning a grade at the end. (Like at a c.c., student might visit the admissions and records office and switch his grade option for a course from Letter grade, to credit/no credit as long as the choice is allowed both for the course and the institution's official time limit.)

That's an excellent example! We have an academic program targeted towards (ahem...) "older adults" called 'Project60" that allows participants to audit (the technical term for enrolling in a course w/o academic credit) any class they like.

 

[symbolipoint]

In fact some types of schools use a "competency based" form of instruction which goes along a grading system which assigns mainly from three letter grades ONLY IF the student earns a certain minimum score in the course within a 1-year time period. If the student earns credit successfully, it is from A, B, or C. Otherwise, the student earns NO CREDIT AND NO GRADE, and essentially, if the student does not at some time finally earn grade and credit, he had just wasted his time; very likely not having given adequate effort.

 

[kuruman]

In fact some types of schools use a "competency based" form of instruction which goes along a grading system which assigns mainly from three letter grades ONLY IF the student earns a certain minimum score in the course within a 1-year time period. If the student earns credit successfully, it is from A, B, or C. Otherwise, the student earns NO CREDIT AND NO GRADE, and essentially, if the student does not at some time finally earn grade and credit, he had just wasted his time; very likely not having given adequate effort.

It looks like this scheme is the usual grading system with the lower two grades, D and F, merged and removed from the transcript. I suspect that the rationale for this is that, by disallowing the option of just barely passing the course with a D, students are made more acutely aware that the responsibility of getting the credit rests with them. It could also be viewed as a "feel good" measure. If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that you even tried.

After reading the discussion here, I wonder whether @vela's question can be answered.

m curious if anyone has tried "ungrading" in their STEM courses and if so, how it worked out.

Is it even possible to try "ungrading" if one's institution requires grade submission? To avoid chaos, the method of student assessment, grades or no grades, must be established across the institution and not be left up to the individual instructor.

At my institution, students are allowed to take up to 6 courses on a "Pass, no Pass" basis except for courses that are requirements for the student's major or minor. The instructor is not informed of the student’s status and the registrar records grades of D or higher as Pass and grades of F as No Pass. Even if I wanted to, I wouldn't be able to decide unilaterally that my course is Pass/no Pass for everybody without getting into deep trouble.

 

[PeroK]

The astonishing experience with grading that I mentioned earlier was this. After grading and scaling the second exam in a large course I took the class average to compare with the first. Much to my astonishment, the second average was two one-hundredths of a point of the first exam average. I had never seen anything like this before so I did some more digging to see how individual students fared. Students whose second score was within ±5% of the first score were labeled as "no change in performance." Students outside that range were labeled "worse performance" (low end) or "better performance" (high end) than last time. Well, the tally showed 20% no "change", 40% "worse" and 40% "better". My interpretation was that some students who did well the first time around slacked off and rested on their laurels as it were, while others who did not do so well got scared and took measures to do better. As luck would have it, the numbers in each group were about equal and the 40% above and below swapped places relative to average.

If my interpretation is correct, then one can argue that it shows that grades serve as an incentive to do better and, simultaneously, as a ustification to slack off.

I suggest what you found may be in large part what's called regression toward the mean:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regression_toward_the_mean

 

[vela]

Is it even possible to try "ungrading" if one's institution requires grade submission? To avoid chaos, the method of student assessment, grades or no grades, must be established across the institution and not be left up to the individual instructor.

Clearly, I can't tell the school, "Sorry, I don't assign grades."

I'm looking at using the ideas within the course. For example, instead of using exams to decide whether a student is successful, I could instead use assignments where the "grade" is either "good," "needs revision," or "missing," along with feedback students could use to revise their work if needed. The ability to revise is key here. Instead of just getting a score and moving on without giving it much thought, students have the incentive to learn from their mistakes, by revisiting their work and improving it.

This process is similar to how writing essays is taught. In a writing class, you don't simply write an essay and have it graded. You write a first draft, then have the instructor or classmate read it over and comment on it. Then you repeat the process with a second draft, ideally incorporating the feedback, and perhaps third draft. Eventually, you submit your finished essay.

 

[gleem]

This process is similar to how writing essays is taught. In a writing class, you don't simply write an essay and have it graded. You write a first draft, then have the instructor or classmate read it over and comment on it. Then you repeat the process with a second draft, ideally incorporating the feedback, and perhaps third draft. Eventually, you submit your finished essay

So, who can take credit for the final essay?

 

[vela]

So, who can take credit for the final essay?

When you submit a paper for publication and the reviewer suggests changes to be made, who takes credit for the final paper?

 

[gleem]

Really, how can you compare the two?

 

[berkeman]

When you submit a paper for publication and the reviewer suggests changes to be made, who takes credit for the final paper?

Does the professor get to see the suggestions from the student reviewing the other student's paper? I would think that the reviewer could get some credit for providing useful feedback. I have no idea how those classes work in practice, though.

 

[symbolipoint]

Does the professor get to see the suggestions from the student reviewing the other student's paper? I would think that the reviewer could get some credit for providing useful feedback. I have no idea how those classes work in practice, though.

That part of the discussion is about learning to write essays in school (such as in junior high school, high school, and in some remedial community college language arts classes).

 

[kuruman]

Clearly, I can't tell the school, "Sorry, I don't assign grades."

I'm looking at using the ideas within the course. For example, instead of using exams to decide whether a student is successful, I could instead use assignments where the "grade" is either "good," "needs revision," or "missing," along with feedback students could use to revise their work if needed. The ability to revise is key here. Instead of just getting a score and moving on without giving it much thought, students have the incentive to learn from their mistakes, by revisiting their work and improving it.

This process is similar to how writing essays is taught. In a writing class, you don't simply write an essay and have it graded. You write a first draft, then have the instructor or classmate read it over and comment on it. Then you repeat the process with a second draft, ideally incorporating the feedback, and perhaps third draft. Eventually, you submit your finished essay.

Sorry, I misunderstood your original question. I assumed that your course, being in STEM, would necessarily involve math, calculations and problem-solving. If essays are an acceptable task, then here is I did for assessment in a course entitled "Energy and the Environment" intended for non-majors with or without a previous course in physics. The final grade was based on class participation, which was negatively affected by absences: "if you're not there, you cannot participate by definition." That was worth 15%. There was midterm essay for 35% and a final essay on a different subject for 50%. Students were given deadlines prior to each essay for (a) a proposal of what they were going to write about which was my opportunity to steer them away from trouble; (b) a first draft which I reviewed and offered suggestions for improvement before the final draft. Timely submission of these was worth a certain percentage of the total for the paper. That kept most of them on track.

I gave a numerical score to each paper but not a letter grade. For my convenience, the maximum obtainable score matched the percentage weight for the paper (35 for midterm, 50 for final). I calculated the final letter grade from the sum total of points. Quite a few students lost points because they didn't turn in the drafts. Also, I considered this a writing course and took off points for egregious and appalling errors, e.g. it's and its; their, there, and they're; affect and effect and so on. My point to the students was "if you want to communicate effectively and not affectively, you'd better use the language correctly."

 

[vela]

Really, how can you compare the two?

Weren't you implying that the others who provide feedback on a paper (like a reviewer) deserve credit in addition to the student (the author)? Did you really never go through this type of process when writing essays in college? Did you receive such substantial feedback that you thought another student should be considered a co-author of the essay?

 

[vela]

I assumed that your course, being in STEM, would necessarily involve math, calculations and problem-solving.

The course does. Part of what started me down this path was the tendency for a substantial number of students to cheat because it's so easy to do now, especially once the classes went all remote. I (and many of my colleagues) have noticed how some students will turn in work using strange notation or with the same strange mistakes and typos. It was pretty obvious they looked up the same solution online and just copied it. Since I wasn't really interested in assessing their ability to copy solutions from the internet, I gave them assignments to explain in words how to solve a problem.

 

[vela]

Does the professor get to see the suggestions from the student reviewing the other student's paper? I would think that the reviewer could get some credit for providing useful feedback. I have no idea how those classes work in practice, though.

I recall that did happen in my lower-division writing course. I ignored a suggestion a student made on my essay, and the instructor later noted he thought I should've followed the suggestion. I don't think we received any sort of credit for reading and commenting on each other's essays though.

 

[kuruman]

The course does. Part of what started me down this path was the tendency for a substantial number of students to cheat because it's so easy to do now, especially once the classes went all remote. I (and many of my colleagues) have noticed how some students will turn in work using strange notation or with the same strange mistakes and typos. It was pretty obvious they looked up the same solution online and just copied it. Since I wasn't really interested in assessing their ability to copy solutions from the internet, I gave them assignments to explain in words how to solve a problem.

I know what you mean. My way of handling cheating was to minimize its importance by assigning a relatively low weight towards the final grade. I retired before the pandemic hit so I have no experience with the complications it has introduced. In the last few years of teaching, though, I used flipitphysics (https://www.flipitphysics.com). If you are not familiar with it, it's worth looking into. It delivers content remotely, using 25-30 minute videos with pauses once in a while for students to answer multiple choice questions testing their comprehension up to that point. It has a wonderful homework engine that allows you to modify their canned problems or write your own completely from scratch. An important option is that the instructor can author problems in which a symbolic answer is required and the algorithm can figure out it it's correct. I'm guessing it creates benchmarks by substituting numbers for the symbols in the instructor's correct answer. And there is more. The instructor can set the number of attempts and the penalty for each attempt. In cases where a numerical answer is required, the instructor can trap the most likely incorrect answers so that if one of them is put in, the student will get an error-specific message like "Kinetic energy is $\frac{1}{2}mv^2 \text{ not }\frac{1}{2}mv$." Finally, the instructor can append the ideally correct solution to every problem; it is made available to the student after the student submits the assignment for grading.

Of course, cheaters will cheat and one cannot prevent them from doing so. It is also true that cheaters, by definition, are not interested in learning so why bother with encouraging them to learn? You can lead a horse to water, etc. etc.

Flipitphysics with its detailed reports on each student's activities while logged in, enabled me to examine the students' habits and separate those who were interested in learning from those who were not. A student who is not interested
1. Spends less than the nominal time of 20-25 minutes of each lecture. About 20% of the class spent 10 minutes or less; the all-time record was an awe-inspiring 1 minute 16 seconds. Even I, with my knowledge of the material, could not duplicate this feat because I had to stop and think before answering each multiple choice question sight unseen.
2. Answers the intermediate multiple choice questions in alphabetic order until he/she gets the correct answer to be allowed to move on to the multiple choice without bothering to view the material in between.
3. Spends little time on each homework problem set, gives up after one or two attempts or doesn't bother with homework at all.

Having an insight in a student's working habits is a good way to identify those who try hard, but have little to show for their efforts. These are worth salvaging.

 

[symbolipoint]

I recall that did happen in my lower-division writing course. I ignored a suggestion a student made on my essay, and the instructor later noted he thought I should've followed the suggestion. I don't think we received any sort of credit for reading and commenting on each other's essays though.

If you could be a little more optimistic, at least that was participation, so this is useful or good.

 

[gleem]

Did you really never go through this type of process when writing essays in college?

No. Never, in HS or college. The essay was assigned, the deadline established, the essay written, submitted, and graded.

I was schooled in a different era 40's, 50's and 60's. Classic pedagogical techniques.

My point was that if substantial corrections are made how can the grade of the final essay be attributed solely to the author? Aren't you also grading everybody who helped?

The whole paradigm of education as changed and continues to change and may never stop changing. BTW in the 40's etc. the teacher's assessment was golden AFAIν.

Also, I considered this a writing course and took off points for egregious and appalling errors, e.g. it's and its; their, there, and they're; affect and effect and so on. My point to the students was "if you want to communicate effectively and not affectively, you'd better use the language correctly."

Appalling, egregious?? Spelling errors usually do not change the meaning of a sentence. It's more a reflection of the writer's attitude similar to how one dresses, influence by culture, pride, and respect.
It is hard for me to see how grammatical mistakes could or should change the grade of a non-writing course unless they were so egregious that they affected the content.

On the other hand, with autocorrect and SW like Grammarly readily available it is hard to figure how misspelling can be a problem unless the problem is one of attitude.

 

[gmax137]

This process is similar to how writing essays is taught. In a writing class, you don't simply write an essay and have it graded. You write a first draft, then have the instructor or classmate read it over and comment on it. Then you repeat the process with a second draft, ideally incorporating the feedback, and perhaps third draft. Eventually, you submit your finished essay.

No. Never, in HS or college. The essay was assigned, the deadline established, the essay written, submitted, and graded.

I was schooled in a different era 40's, 50's and 60's. Classic pedagogical techniques.

Same here, 1970s. Nobody read or commented on any of my writing other than the teacher/professor grading the work, submitted once.

 

[kuruman]

Appalling, egregious?? Spelling errors usually do not change the meaning of a sentence.

But they reflect poorly on those who commit them. If I were an employer, all else being equal, I would hire the candidate who knows how to use the language correctly. Whether I teach a writing course or not, I believe that my students should be able to communicate their thoughts properly and that it is part of my job to see to it.

 

[vela]

My point was that if substantial corrections are made how can the grade of the final essay be attributed solely to the author? Aren't you also grading everybody who helped?

No. First, the students are the ones who ultimately decide when their essays are done. They can choose to heed or ignore any feedback they get. Second, the feedback tends to be general, not specific. Only a masochist would go through with a fine-tooth comb and locate every single grammatical or spelling error. You might point out a few and suggest proofreading. Or you might say something like, "I found this paragraph kind of confusing," so the student can consider rewriting or expanding it.

Appalling, egregious?? Spelling errors usually do not change the meaning of a sentence. It's more a reflection of the writer's attitude similar to how one dresses, influence by culture, pride, and respect.
It is hard for me to see how grammatical mistakes could or should change the grade of a non-writing course unless they were so egregious that they affected the content.

On the other hand, why should we ignore proper spelling and grammar just because it's not an English or writing class? Colleges and universities typically want their graduates to possesses good writing skills and to be able to communicate effectively, and employers consistently rate those skills as highly desirable as well.

 

[gleem]

I don't disagree with you regarding the importance of spelling and grammar, it's like dressing appropriately for the occasion. I am a terrible proofreader, missing many misspellings (actually typos) in my own writings. So, if not using spell check or Grammarly I have to go over my work several times slowly to find them.

However, a better way for noncompliant students might be to hand the essay back for correction instead of docking points and having to figure what penalty is appropriate. If you feel you must lower the score, tell them ahead of time that if the essay does not meet standards, the essay will be returned as incomplete and docked whatever you feel appropriate because of your extra work. Frankly I would be more of a stickler on word usage and proper connotation.

For the last twenty years or so kids have had access to Document Software making corrections a cinch.

How many of us remember writing in essays in cursive or using typewriters, Erasable paper and white-out?
Raise your hand .

How many

 

[gmax137]

How about that horrible "corrasable" paper. googl googl goo...

 

[gleem]

Yeah, I used it.

 

[berkeman]

How many of us remember writing in essays in cursive or using typewriters, Erasable paper and white-out?
Raise your hand .

LOL, one of the first DIY projects I worked on when I was a freshman in university (1976) was a simple computerized keyboard so I could type reports in soft copy and print the final clean hard copy. I never got it all working, but let's just say I was highly motivated!

 

[kuruman]

How many of us remember writing in essays in cursive or using typewriters, Erasable paper and white-out?
Raise your hand .

to all of the above. I also think that the main reason teachers don't read essays written in cursive is that cursive is no longer how students communicate there, they're, their thoughts and desires. Instagram has replaced the billet-doux. I also point out that people, who put their trust in spellcheckers and unquestioningly accept their suggestions, are inviting trouble. My wife, a Russian historian, once showed me a student essay in which the author maintained that " $\dots~$ the surfs and pheasants rose in rebellion." Perplexed? Click on the spoiler.

Spoiler

$\dots~$ the serfs and peasants rose in rebellion.

 

[symbolipoint]

to all of the above. I also think that the main reason teachers don't read essays written in cursive is that cursive is no longer how students communicate there, they're, their thoughts and desires. Instagram has replaced the billet-doux. I also point out that people, who put their trust in spellcheckers and unquestioningly accept their suggestions, are inviting trouble. My wife, a Russian historian, once showed me a student essay in which the author maintained that " $\dots~$ the surfs and pheasants rose in rebellion." Perplexed? Click on the spoiler.

Spoiler

$\dots~$ the serfs and peasants rose in rebellion.

Playing at the beach, looking for birds which do not belong there?