Who's tried Ungrading in STEM courses?

[Cave Diver]

When I was hiring EEs, I never asked for transcripts. I just didn't care what grade they got in physics. I asked questions; my own impromptu oral exam. No one ever asked for my transcripts either. But solving problems for people is a constant activity. Honestly, I don't know how to compare an A- from Texas Tech to a B- from MIT. Grading just isn't consistent enough to mean much outside of a single institution (maybe inside too).

Any mentally stable MIT student with As in physics, just hire the kid. Let's keep it real, please. Swarthmore? Same thing. Unfortunately that does not solve the problem you describe. Grades mean very little in general. Many As are actually Cs, not Bs. Recommendation letters that strongly interpret grades for you may be of great help. I always do that in my letters.

 

[Cave Diver]

Some training systems use a chart of objectives. The person who trains the learner makes a mark to affirm that a specific objective is satisfied. The objectives might or might not be met in any decided sequence. Only important is at some point in the training or during an assessing period, every objective is met. The training administrators could choose to apply a scoring system, or not, depending on how important a scoring system is for the training/learning to be done.

Yes, apply this in a quantum mechanics class, or statistical mechanics, or optics, or electromagnetic theory, or mechanics of materials, or thermodynamics. Break those subjects down to specific "objectives" and assess those on a rolling basis throughout the semester and make it fair so that students do not copy from each other or other sources and truly demonstrate mastery over the semester. Of course, you can do it. If there is no limit to how low you are prepared to place the bar, that is ...

 

[Cave Diver]

Let's be open-minded now.

I read the article by Kohn reference by @vela "The Case Against Grades" which elaborate on his ideas and gives examples of their success(?), Have any scientific studies (think double-blind) been conducted comparing ungrading programs to grading programs, and the effect on students' future success? Kohn is down on grading in elementary and high school but doesn't say much about college. For schools that ungrade, he states

"Often more motivated and proficient learners" By not quantifying this statement what do we take it to mean in support of his thesis? He also does not give much advice as to how assessments are to be made except you dare not use numbers.

Something happened during the '60s and '70s. I met one of my ug physics profs several years after graduating, and he commented that students were less hard-working.

Regarding grades reducing the incentive to learn was not my experience. As far as driving students to cheat can we blame increased research misconduct on grading? Some of these students became parents who in recent years tried to bribe university officials to assist in the admission of their children to university. Did their grades make them do it?

Maybe we parents must shoulder some blame for promising too much and not being realistic.

Education is a product. If you wish to increase sales you lower the price, that is, grades are inflated. Health is a product. The most critical one. That is why you are paying an arm and a leg in US ...

It's all about business and the economy and how they evolve over time based on technology. Socio-cultural and political changes are seated on this basis and are of secondary importance in understanding the changes we are discussing, I think. This of course assumes that fundamental human nature does not change much in a couple of millennia or so, which we know is the case.

That is why it is utterly futile to try to resist the trends. But that does not mean that we need to suspend critical thinking. If you must put food on the table, go ahead and un-grade. But this "holy indignation" against grades is not funny ... As I implied before, I am not sure what is more scary, the blatant lie (research shows ... sure it does!), or the feeling that perhaps the un-grading zealots actually believe in what they preach. (A clarification: Of course, there are "fun courses" that can do fine without grades and amazing students who need no grades. The understanding is that we are not discussing these special cases.)

 

[gleem]

Education is a product.

Yes, I think this is true. But at one time it was a service that was sought and students were clients, not customers.

 

[anorlunda]

What happened in 1967 was twofold.

1. The selective service draft exemption had been offered to students. But the Vietnam War caused pressure. Draft exemptions were offered only to students with 3.0 or better. On campus that was translated to mean a grade C or lower was a death penalty.
2. The baby boomer generation took over from the lost generation. Their numbers, their outlook their behaviors and their entitlement were different to say the least.

 

[gleem]

On campus that was translated to mean a grade C or lower was a death penalty.

Draft exemption mostly meant that your life will not be interrupted. It wasn't exactly a death sentence although some probably thought it was, with 2.7 M serving and 58 K dying. I know, for those killed it was.

The baby boomer generation took over from the lost generation. Their numbers, their outlook their behaviors and their entitlement were different to say the least.

Actually, it was the greatest generation, 1901 -1927 that spawned the baby boomers. Sandwiched between them was the silent generation that suffered during the depression and WWII and benefited from the economic expansion that occurred in the '50s and '60s. We also suffered (and benefited from the IIs classification) through the Vietnam war and don't forget the Korean war. The way I see it the late boomers and X generation are the ones that really started to exhibit a more me attitude. Anyway, it's complicated.

 

[JLowe]

I don't agree with this. Knowledge of a subject can be separated from working under pressure. A good tennis coach, for example would assess a player's ability and their mental strength separately.

Also, I had someone working for me who was technically very sound (IT) but flaky under pressure. So, I got him to do what he was good at: writing and testing scripts. But, I wouldn't have asked him to work a weekend on his own.

Your attitude is too all or nothing for me. We ought to make the working environment more inclusive and try to exploit the strengths people have. Not throw people on the scrapheap because they have a weakness.

This reminds me of a discussion I had about public speaking, and being required in school. No job I've ever had has chosen the bad public speakers to do the public speaking. In the workforce, people are naturally assigned tasks based on strengths and weaknesses, because this is the best way to get the job done and make money.

 

[berkeman]

This reminds me of a discussion I had about public speaking, and being required in school. No job I've ever had has chosen the bad public speakers to do the public speaking.

I'm not sure I understand your point, but public speaking is definitely a skill that can be learned and improved upon. Even if in the end the student still is not great at public speaking, they are likely better at it due to the instruction (assuming a good and patient teacher). I learned a huge amount from such classes and from taking part in speech competitions, and it has served me very well over the years. My father was a member of Toastmasters as well, which was part of my motivation to take the classes in high school and get more comfortable speaking in front of large groups.

 

[JLowe]

I'm not sure I understand your point, but public speaking is definitely a skill that can be learned and improved upon. Even if in the end the student still is not great at public speaking, they are likely better at it due to the instruction (assuming a good and patient teacher). I learned a huge amount from such classes and from taking part in speech competitions, and it has served me very well over the years. My father was a member of Toastmasters as well, which was part of my motivation to take the classes in high school and get more comfortable speaking in front of large groups.

I'm not saying it's a skill that can't be learned, I'm saying that its rare people that aren't good at it are gonna have to do it at their job.

 

[berkeman]

I'm not saying it's a skill that can't be learned, I'm saying that its rare people that aren't good at it are gonna have to do it at their job.

https://www.toastmasters.org/

 

[hutchphd]

This is why good teaching requires good teachers. It is not a one size fits all proposition and god save us from the monolith.

I had several excellent teachers in High School. None of them taught me science. The one who really did me the most lasting good was my award- winning choir director. I was perfectly happy singing bass baritone in an extraordinary choir (better than subsequent Cornell Glee club) but Mr Baber let it be known to me during my junior year that he had decided I should be the lead in the senior musical a year hence. I had never sought the limelight, and there was no planet upon which I wanted to to do that, but there was no way I would let him down. What a gift he gave me.

I believe the education I received in Ohio public schools in the 1960's using the "old" paradigm served me well. Of course I was (maybe upper) middle class and white and had extraordinary parents of bone fide american purity to back before the revolution. But it did work well for me.

The answer as I see it is simple but not easy. Hire talented teachers. Pay them well. Treat them with dignity. Constrain them lightly.

EDIT: It has been pointed out to me (thanks @berkeman ) that this could be interpreted other than as intended. I am not at all pleased that there was and is rascism and xenophobia everywhere in a US society and it was worse in my youth. I was simply supplying "truth in advertising" that I had a particularly privileged childhood because of societal norms . Would that everyone could say the same and enjoy those benefits

 

[BillTre]

I think an important aspect of public speaking include confidence in front of crowds and confidence in your subject.
I had rather severe stage fright when I was young, but I took a HS class where the main thing was to get people to embarrass themselves in front of the class.
Since nothing bad happened, this lead to the extinction of that emotional response.
I am now pretty fearless in front of crowds.
I also use an attitude that on the subject I am talking about, I know more than the audience and they want to hear what I have to say.
The rest is talk organization which I think is pretty straightforward.

I think being able to confidently speaking in front of people is a benefit for many careers.