Who's tried Ungrading in STEM courses?

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The discussion centers on the concept of "ungrading" in STEM education, where traditional point-based grading is replaced with alternative assessments to enhance student motivation and learning. Instructors have experimented with low-stakes assignments that require students to articulate their problem-solving processes, leading to improved quality in student submissions. However, challenges arise in accurately assessing student work, with some educators considering simpler grading systems like "satisfactory" or "needs revision." The conversation also touches on fairness in grading, particularly in high-pressure testing situations, and the importance of holistic evaluations that reflect a student's overall capabilities rather than just test performance. Ultimately, the thread highlights the ongoing exploration of effective assessment methods in educational settings.
  • #51
vela said:
Did you really never go through this type of process when writing essays in college?
No. Never, in HS or college. The essay was assigned, the deadline established, the essay written, submitted, and graded.

I was schooled in a different era 40's, 50's and 60's. Classic pedagogical techniques.

My point was that if substantial corrections are made how can the grade of the final essay be attributed solely to the author? Aren't you also grading everybody who helped?

The whole paradigm of education as changed and continues to change and may never stop changing. BTW in the 40's etc. the teacher's assessment was golden AFAIν.
kuruman said:
Also, I considered this a writing course and took off points for egregious and appalling errors, e.g. it's and its; their, there, and they're; affect and effect and so on. My point to the students was "if you want to communicate effectively and not affectively, you'd better use the language correctly."

Appalling, egregious?? Spelling errors usually do not change the meaning of a sentence. It's more a reflection of the writer's attitude similar to how one dresses, influence by culture, pride, and respect.
It is hard for me to see how grammatical mistakes could or should change the grade of a non-writing course unless they were so egregious that they affected the content.

On the other hand, with autocorrect and SW like Grammarly readily available it is hard to figure how misspelling can be a problem unless the problem is one of attitude.
 
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  • #52
vela said:
This process is similar to how writing essays is taught. In a writing class, you don't simply write an essay and have it graded. You write a first draft, then have the instructor or classmate read it over and comment on it. Then you repeat the process with a second draft, ideally incorporating the feedback, and perhaps third draft. Eventually, you submit your finished essay.

gleem said:
No. Never, in HS or college. The essay was assigned, the deadline established, the essay written, submitted, and graded.

I was schooled in a different era 40's, 50's and 60's. Classic pedagogical techniques.
Same here, 1970s. Nobody read or commented on any of my writing other than the teacher/professor grading the work, submitted once.
 
  • #53
gleem said:
Appalling, egregious?? Spelling errors usually do not change the meaning of a sentence.
But they reflect poorly on those who commit them. If I were an employer, all else being equal, I would hire the candidate who knows how to use the language correctly. Whether I teach a writing course or not, I believe that my students should be able to communicate their thoughts properly and that it is part of my job to see to it.
 
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  • #54
gleem said:
My point was that if substantial corrections are made how can the grade of the final essay be attributed solely to the author? Aren't you also grading everybody who helped?
No. First, the students are the ones who ultimately decide when their essays are done. They can choose to heed or ignore any feedback they get. Second, the feedback tends to be general, not specific. Only a masochist would go through with a fine-tooth comb and locate every single grammatical or spelling error. You might point out a few and suggest proofreading. Or you might say something like, "I found this paragraph kind of confusing," so the student can consider rewriting or expanding it.

Appalling, egregious?? Spelling errors usually do not change the meaning of a sentence. It's more a reflection of the writer's attitude similar to how one dresses, influence by culture, pride, and respect.
It is hard for me to see how grammatical mistakes could or should change the grade of a non-writing course unless they were so egregious that they affected the content.
On the other hand, why should we ignore proper spelling and grammar just because it's not an English or writing class? Colleges and universities typically want their graduates to possesses good writing skills and to be able to communicate effectively, and employers consistently rate those skills as highly desirable as well.
 
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  • #55
I don't disagree with you regarding the importance of spelling and grammar, it's like dressing appropriately for the occasion. I am a terrible proofreader, missing many misspellings (actually typos) in my own writings. So, if not using spell check or Grammarly I have to go over my work several times slowly to find them.

However, a better way for noncompliant students might be to hand the essay back for correction instead of docking points and having to figure what penalty is appropriate. If you feel you must lower the score, tell them ahead of time that if the essay does not meet standards, the essay will be returned as incomplete and docked whatever you feel appropriate because of your extra work. Frankly I would be more of a stickler on word usage and proper connotation.

For the last twenty years or so kids have had access to Document Software making corrections a cinch.

How many of us remember writing in essays in cursive or using typewriters, Erasable paper and white-out?
Raise your hand 🤚.

1643318119914.jpeg

How many
 
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  • #56
🤚

How about that horrible "corrasable" paper. googl googl goo...

corrasable.JPG
 
  • #57
Yeah, I used it.
 
  • #58
gleem said:
How many of us remember writing in essays in cursive or using typewriters, Erasable paper and white-out?
Raise your hand 🤚.
LOL, one of the first DIY projects I worked on when I was a freshman in university (1976) was a simple computerized keyboard so I could type reports in soft copy and print the final clean hard copy. I never got it all working, but let's just say I was highly motivated! :smile:
 
  • #59
gleem said:
How many of us remember writing in essays in cursive or using typewriters, Erasable paper and white-out?
Raise your hand 🤚.
🤚 to all of the above. I also think that the main reason teachers don't read essays written in cursive is that cursive is no longer how students communicate there, they're, their thoughts and desires. Instagram has replaced the billet-doux. I also point out that people, who put their trust in spellcheckers and unquestioningly accept their suggestions, are inviting trouble. My wife, a Russian historian, once showed me a student essay in which the author maintained that " ##\dots~## the surfs and pheasants rose in rebellion." Perplexed? Click on the spoiler.

##\dots~## the serfs and peasants rose in rebellion.
 
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  • #60
kuruman said:
🤚 to all of the above. I also think that the main reason teachers don't read essays written in cursive is that cursive is no longer how students communicate there, they're, their thoughts and desires. Instagram has replaced the billet-doux. I also point out that people, who put their trust in spellcheckers and unquestioningly accept their suggestions, are inviting trouble. My wife, a Russian historian, once showed me a student essay in which the author maintained that " ##\dots~## the surfs and pheasants rose in rebellion." Perplexed? Click on the spoiler.

##\dots~## the serfs and peasants rose in rebellion.
Playing at the beach, looking for birds which do not belong there?
 
  • #61
@vela, post #54 very well said (written)
 
  • #62
vela said:
I'm curious if anyone has tried "ungrading" in their STEM courses and if so, how it worked out. The idea is to get away from the using points to determine a student's grade and use different types of assessment that better motivate students to learn.

https://www.jessestommel.com/why-i-dont-grade/

https://www.chemedx.org/blog/ungrading-what-it-and-why-should-we-use-it

My interest arises from my experiences since classes went remote because of the pandemic. Like many other instructors, I saw the mysterious increase in performance by many students on exams (as well as obvious signs of cheating in some cases). To reduce the incentive to cheat, I replaced most of these high-stakes assignments with low-stakes weekly problems, where students had to write up a solution where they had to identify the relevant physical concepts, explain their problem-solving strategy, and finally solve the problem. It wasn't enough to just write down a bunch of math, which they could easily find on Chegg or somewhere else on the internet; they actually had to articulate the reasoning involved. I have to say I was pleasantly surprised by the quality of the write-ups from some of my students.

There were some problems, however. The main thing was assessment. I developed a rubric, but then it would sometimes end up resulting in a grade I didn't feel accurately reflected the quality of the work. Over time, I've modified the rubric, but I've never been happy with the results. This semester, I'm considering just giving them scores of "satisfactory," "needs revision," and "not submitted," and record audio feedback on what I thought they did well, what could use improvement, etc. I'm still thinking about how to translate these results into a letter grade that I have to assign at the end of the semester.

Anyway, I would love to hear any comments or idea, tips, and about anyone's (student or faculty) experiences with these types of assessments.

vela,

Like you, I too had to adjust quite a bit of my assessment while conducting online or remote classes. The problem of "cheating" is certainly an issue with online exams. As with you, I had to de-emphasize exams, making them less than 50% of the total grade.

My assessment comes in different forms. Since most of the classes that I have taught during the past couple of years had been the General Physics courses, they had lab components. I upped the percentage of the grade from labs (up to 25%) after I was introduced to Pivot Interactives. I find them to be the best solution to "virtual experiments" because of two things: (i) other than actually performing the experiment itself, the students had do their own measurements of a real observation (data had all the errors of a typical experimental data), and (ii) I could modify the instruction to include a large portion of the material. It made it easier to test their knowledge of the topic by asking specific questions that I would have done in an exam. And they certainly could not look those up on Chegg or any other online websites since this often depended upon what they were observing.

Another form of assessment came from weekly discussion forum. This, I will admit, took a lot of effort and a lot of planning ahead, but sometime, there were happy coincidences. For example, it was the week that we were about to start a lesson on magnetism when the news reported on the testimony of that nurse in Florida claiming that the vaccine caused her to become magnetized. I immediately scrapped my planned topic for that week and instead, used the news report to ask the students to analyze scientifically every single claim made. They were to write their discussion post based only on the physics and not to make any kind of moral, social, or political judgement. And oh, the kicker was, this was a physics class for bio, pre-med, and life-science majors, so they knew a bit about physiology. It was as if they stars aligned and dropped this topic right on our laps at the right time.

Unlike the instructor in the video, I did not "ungrade". Rather, I emphasized some things that I did not normally do in f2f classes, and de-emphasized other things that normally would be a huge part of f2f classes. I had extensive training and got certified by the school as an online instructor, meaning that I could teach the courses that are exclusively online, so a lot of the ideas, techniques, and philosophy of teaching remotely came from what I acquired from that training. I learned that there are many different ways to student engagement in remote classes, and a variety of methodologies to assess their achievements (Bloom Taxonomy galore!). What I had mentioned above are only some of the things that I have done. Since most of my classes during the pandemic were synchronous, we also did a lot of graded "activities" as part of the online lessons.

BTW, my technique in combating rampant cheating during the exams for online classes is this: (i) all my questions are original and came out of my head (ii) my exams have strict time limits and only open over a specific window of time, usually during the published class time for synchronous classes. Let's say that I designed an exam that should take them 90 minutes. I will open the exam for a specific 2 hour window, say from 1 pm to 3 pm, and they can take the exam at any time in that time period, but they have only 90 minutes from the moment they start, with a hard stop at 3:00 pm no matter when they start.

Now, I have told them that they should treat the exams as if they were closed book exams, even though I specified that they were open book (restricted to only using the text, class notes, and everything from our LMS page). I also warned them that if they continuously needed to keep referring to their notes and text, they would run out of time. In other words, if they had to run to Chegg each time, there was no chance that they'd finish the exam. Texting each other for help to solve the questions also won't work all the time because I had a bank of questions that randomly assigned different questions to different students.

The result so far seems optimistic. Other than Spring 2020 semester when all hell broke loose, the percentage of A's, B's, C's, and D's in my classes haven't showed significant differences than my previous f2f classes (I got trained as an online instructor over Summer 2020 and started implementing what I learned in Fall 2020). I'm still refining and modifying my courses each semester, and just when I thought I was getting the hang of it, we've moved back to mostly f2f classes.

Zz.
 
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  • #63
vela said:
I'm curious if anyone has tried "ungrading" in their STEM courses and if so, how it worked out. The idea is to get away from the using points to determine a student's grade and use different types of assessment that better motivate students to learn.

https://www.jessestommel.com/why-i-dont-grade/

https://www.chemedx.org/blog/ungrading-what-it-and-why-should-we-use-it

My interest arises from my experiences since classes went remote because of the pandemic. Like many other instructors, I saw the mysterious increase in performance by many students on exams (as well as obvious signs of cheating in some cases). To reduce the incentive to cheat, I replaced most of these high-stakes assignments with low-stakes weekly problems, where students had to write up a solution where they had to identify the relevant physical concepts, explain their problem-solving strategy, and finally solve the problem. It wasn't enough to just write down a bunch of math, which they could easily find on Chegg or somewhere else on the internet; they actually had to articulate the reasoning involved. I have to say I was pleasantly surprised by the quality of the write-ups from some of my students.

There were some problems, however. The main thing was assessment. I developed a rubric, but then it would sometimes end up resulting in a grade I didn't feel accurately reflected the quality of the work. Over time, I've modified the rubric, but I've never been happy with the results. This semester, I'm considering just giving them scores of "satisfactory," "needs revision," and "not submitted," and record audio feedback on what I thought they did well, what could use improvement, etc. I'm still thinking about how to translate these results into a letter grade that I have to assign at the end of the semester.

Anyway, I would love to hear any comments or idea, tips, and about anyone's (student or faculty) experiences with these types of assessments.

After I had set the curve on a Mechanism Design test, the instructor undergraded by letting everyone else take the exam again.
 
  • #64
kuruman said:
🤚 to all of the above. I also think that the main reason teachers don't read essays written in cursive is that cursive is no longer how students communicate there, they're, their thoughts and desires. Instagram has replaced the billet-doux. I also point out that people, who put their trust in spellcheckers and unquestioningly accept their suggestions, are inviting trouble. My wife, a Russian historian, once showed me a student essay in which the author maintained that " ##\dots~## the surfs and pheasants rose in rebellion." Perplexed? Click on the spoiler.

##\dots~## the serfs and peasants rose in rebellion.
I had to actually read the Spoiler to become aware that I did not even notice the spelling mistakes in the passage; I still made the correct reading and understood, not even realizing I read through those spelling mistakes. On the other hand, if I had been the author of that passage, I WOULD HAVE spelled 'serf' and 'peasant' correctly without any struggle.
 
  • #65
kuruman said:
the surfs and pheasants
Like this? Doesn't seem too revolting to me.
 
  • #66
ZapperZ said:
vela,

Like you, I too had to adjust quite a bit of my assessment while conducting online or remote classes. The problem of "cheating" is certainly an issue with online exams. As with you, I had to de-emphasize exams, making them less than 50% of the total grade.

...

BTW, my technique in combating rampant cheating during the exams for online classes is this: (i) all my questions are original and came out of my head (ii) my exams have strict time limits and only open over a specific window of time, usually during the published class time for synchronous classes. Let's say that I designed an exam that should take them 90 minutes. I will open the exam for a specific 2 hour window, say from 1 pm to 3 pm, and they can take the exam at any time in that time period, but they have only 90 minutes from the moment they start, with a hard stop at 3:00 pm no matter when they start.
Two interesting points here, I'm sorry I did not see them before.

The university where I am an adjunct does not allow for homework to be more than 25% of the total grade, so they are wed to midterms/quizzes/final exams. So this semester, in my graduate class, I assigned homework, but will not grade it nor collect it, unless they want a bump in their grades at the end of the semester. They can hand in ALL the homework assigned for a partial letter score upgrade, i.e. B- to B. I told them it must be neat and not just what is online on chegg or what they find in a solutions manual. I won't be giving any grade adjustments, I assigned over 500 problems and I know they are not doing the homework from the test scores.

In addition, I make two versions of the exam and they are alternating when I hand them out. It is blatant copying, I can say and even my grader has noticed that they copy on the quizzes. I did the paperwork to turn them in and that was a nightmare, but you have to do what you have to do. I will say that about 1/3 of the class will fail because they are simply not prepared for this level of class. (I'm basically teaching a sophomore level differential equations class to engineering graduate students, 90% of which are international students who, from our experience, have doctored transcripts. It takes a semester to figure out the ones who do not have valid credentials and throw them out. My department eliminated 50% of their 1st year grad students last year because of faked transcripts.)

As for making up exams, the one time I did use book problems on an online exam via zoom call, the grades went up from a 50% average to a 85%, so cheating is rampant. I am changing texts next semester, the first thing I did was looked for the solutions manual online (not chegg) and when I was satisfied I didn't see it after 10 minutes of searching, I decided on the new text.

Because I have huge classes, (next semester I have 2 sections of a grauate class with 25 students limits and they will be full), I've decided to forgo the weekly quizzes and just give 4 midterms. They will be difficult to say the least and not from the text. I could get away with a single exam but there is no testing center to send them to where I can ensure that they can't cheat.
 
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  • #67
Dr Transport said:
... international students who, from our experience, have doctored transcripts. It takes a semester to figure out the ones who do not have valid credentials and throw them out. My department eliminated 50% of their 1st year grad students last year because of faked transcripts.)
[TANGENT]
Wow.
I'm trying to square this with the dozens and dozens of threads here on PF from aspiring grad students who ask what they can do to prop up their "measly" 3.2 GPA. Seems like a lost cause if there are others faking transcripts.
[/TANGENT]
 
  • #68
Dr Transport said:
I will say that about 1/3 of the class will fail because they are simply not prepared for this level of class.

It's hard to imagine 1/3 of grad students failing a course.
 
  • #69
Dr. Transport, gmax137, gleem, others,
about all the cheating and the remedies you have been trying, what more can you do? What else are you ALLOWED to do?
 
  • #70
gleem said:
It's hard to imagine 1/3 of grad students failing a course.
I saw the result many years ago in interviewing EE candidates. It was pretty common for people to have taken classes and have no idea how to do the basic stuff they said they could, that should have been easy. I had zero interest in their grades, that meant nothing compared to asking for solutions to problems. I didn't care how or where they learned the material. Grad school is also a place where knowledge has to actually be applied, not just collected on a transcript.
 
  • #71
Dr Transport said:
I could get away with a single exam but there is no testing center to send them to where I can ensure that they can't cheat.
I take it your courses will be taught remotely. My colleagues often complained about obvious signs of cheating on exams, like using weird ass notation. I had some students who copied stray marks that were on the solution they found online because they clearly didn't understand the solution. One thing you can do is make students write explanations on exams, so even if they find a solution online, it's useless unless they understand what's going on.

I'm happy to be back in the classroom this semester, and so are the students for the most part. The remote classes definitely took a toll on some students. I'm teaching the second semester of intro physics, but I noticed some students really don't know what it takes to succeed in a physics course. Some don't attend regularly (and miss the labs as a result); some don't do much of the homework; etc.
 
  • #72
DaveE said:
I saw the result many years ago in interviewing EE candidates. It was pretty common for people to have taken classes and have no idea how to do the basic stuff they said they could, that should have been easy. I had zero interest in their grades, that meant nothing compared to asking for solutions to problems.
This gets to the idea underlying ungrading.

The traditional idea behind grades is that students who learn the material well will do well on assignments and exams, which will be reflected in their grade for a course. But there are a lot of students who suck at learning, so the emphasis on earning points/grades incentivizes cheating and other bad behaviors over learning. If a student happens to learn something along the way, great. But getting 100% on the exam turns out to be the main goal, not understanding the material.

I imagine the way the system is supposed to work is in fact how it worked out for many of us here. So we have the mindset that since the system worked for us, we're just going to stick with it, despite obvious signs it doesn't work for many students. The goal of ungrading is to set up a course so that learning, rather than earning points, becomes the main focus for students.
 
  • #73
DaveE said:
I saw the result many years ago in interviewing EE candidates. It was pretty common for people to have taken classes and have no idea how to do the basic stuff they said they could, that should have been easy. I had zero interest in their grades, that meant nothing compared to asking for solutions to problems. I didn't care how or where they learned the material. Grad school is also a place where knowledge has to actually be applied, not just collected on a transcript.
That reminds us of why good interviewers for scientific or engineering position candidates ask basic applied questions, such as mostly involving basic arithmetic and basic algebra, including for some simple applications directly related to the job to be filled. The competent candidates will logically pull their way through the problem; and the incompetent candidates will not due to not having the concepts or to not having the academic skills. But OF COURSE, this does not account for social inter-network connections.
 
  • #74
Allow me to reminisce about the old days. When I went to college, we had an enforced policy that C must be average. Actually the mean, with half above and half below. That means the average GPA was 2.0 by definition. Flunk out was 1.85.

We lost half the students each semester. We started with 340 freshmen EEs and graduated 30. Nobody ever asked about rank in class.

On the other hand, tuition my freshman year was only $300, and by senior year $600. Admission was lax by today's standard. It was an egalitarian system that granted admission to a large number of candidates, but graduated only the worthy. Many flunk outs were able to get degrees in less demanding fields in less demanding colleges. They could transfer credits for the courses they did pass. In that way, those who flunked out did not lose a fortune. The phrase for that is, "Reach for the brass ring."

p.s. It was the Vietnam War that changed everything. Suddenly, a grade less than B was seen as a death sentence. The flunk rate dropped drastically. After the war, it never reverted to the previous state.
 
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  • #75
anorlunda said:
an enforced policy that C must be average
Oh, so you didn't go to Stanford then...
 
  • #76
gleem said:
It's hard to imagine 1/3 of grad students failing a course.
It's not so hard when the course is Theory of Elastic Stability. :smile:
 
  • #77
swampwiz said:
It's not so hard when the course is Theory of Elastic Stability.
My point was that most of those people should not have been admitted to the graduate program.
 
  • #78
anorlunda said:
Allow me to reminisce about the old days. When I went to college, we had an enforced policy that C must be average. Actually the mean, with half above and half below. That means the average GPA was 2.0 by definition. Flunk out was 1.85.

We lost half the students each semester. We started with 340 freshmen EEs and graduated 30. Nobody ever asked about rank in class.

p.s. It was the Vietnam War that changed everything. Suddenly, a grade less than B was seen as a death sentence. The flunk rate dropped drastically. After the war, it never reverted to the previous state.
Perhaps it was like this?

 
  • #79
symbolipoint said:
Dr. Transport, gmax137, gleem, others,
about all the cheating and the remedies you have been trying, what more can you do? What else are you ALLOWED to do?
I've asked for the largest lecture halls on campus, that way I can get away with one version of the exam and spread them out so that they can't cheat. Right now I am in a classroom that has about 5 chairs empty, so spreading them out isn't an option.

We are not a big university, nor a major research university, so we don't have the amenities that others have. I'm really only on campus for about 8 hours a week, so taking time to do other approaches isn't viable.

Part of the cheating is cultural, they feel honored to have someone view their work as good and want to copy it. The other side of this, is that they feel the obligation to help each other out, again it is a cultural thing. In the US, we are brought up to help, but it is every man for himself, which is not how they were raised.

I had three of my students who got a zero for copying beg me for a makeup exam, I gave in, but it was extremely difficult and I'm going to be a bastard grading it, they won't get better than an 50%. When they came to take it, I locked up their bags and phones in my lab store room and put them in three different rooms and told them explicitly that if I saw any evidence of cheating this time, zeros would be given again and they'd flunk my course, period. Come back next semester, buy the new text and try again.

As for what else I can do, I don't know.
 
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  • #80
Dr Transport said:
Part of the cheating is cultural
It is also cultural to not "rat" on friends or family. I think it is strange how some social instincts are actually antisocial in effect.
 
  • #81
vela said:
I take it your courses will be taught remotely.

Nope, all in person. That is how rampant and blatant it is. These people are pros at it, they've copied off of others for their entire careers.
 
  • #82
Will this be the great imposter generation?
 
  • #83
vela said:
I'm curious if anyone has tried "ungrading" in their STEM courses and if so, how it worked out. The idea is to get away from the using points to determine a student's grade and use different types of assessment that better motivate students to learn.

https://www.jessestommel.com/why-i-dont-grade/

https://www.chemedx.org/blog/ungrading-what-it-and-why-should-we-use-it

My interest arises from my experiences since classes went remote because of the pandemic. Like many other instructors, I saw the mysterious increase in performance by many students on exams (as well as obvious signs of cheating in some cases). To reduce the incentive to cheat, I replaced most of these high-stakes assignments with low-stakes weekly problems, where students had to write up a solution where they had to identify the relevant physical concepts, explain their problem-solving strategy, and finally solve the problem. It wasn't enough to just write down a bunch of math, which they could easily find on Chegg or somewhere else on the internet; they actually had to articulate the reasoning involved. I have to say I was pleasantly surprised by the quality of the write-ups from some of my students.

There were some problems, however. The main thing was assessment. I developed a rubric, but then it would sometimes end up resulting in a grade I didn't feel accurately reflected the quality of the work. Over time, I've modified the rubric, but I've never been happy with the results. This semester, I'm considering just giving them scores of "satisfactory," "needs revision," and "not submitted," and record audio feedback on what I thought they did well, what could use improvement, etc. I'm still thinking about how to translate these results into a letter grade that I have to assign at the end of the semester.

Anyway, I would love to hear any comments or idea, tips, and about anyone's (student or faculty) experiences with these types of assessments.

Mr. Kohn talks nicely but lives in lalaland. If his theories mattered then grades would be a thing of the past. We need proctored tests and grades to know how well students know the material. We also need them so that students get stressed out, do their best, and become better people through developing mechanisms of coping with life, pressure, competition, and having to find ways to do things they hate. You take a wrong turn and you are dead. This is how life is. It's OK for students to take a test and a grade. They will become far more traumatized if they go out there like a bunch of entitled weaklings. That's hard to hear but it shouldn't be. This is how the world has been spinning since prehistory. It won't change for you or me the last 20 years just because we've been pressing buttons on a screen. Why is it so hard to understand the obvious? It's interesting that people with PhDs are capable of confusing reality with wishful thinking to such an extent, or worse, knowingly lie with a straight face. It is equally interesting that other people take them seriously and even more interesting that it is nearly impossible to find any articles criticizing 'ungrading' for what it is: a dishonest and hypocritical device.
 
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  • #84
Some training systems use a chart of objectives. The person who trains the learner makes a mark to affirm that a specific objective is satisfied. The objectives might or might not be met in any decided sequence. Only important is at some point in the training or during an assessing period, every objective is met. The training administrators could choose to apply a scoring system, or not, depending on how important a scoring system is for the training/learning to be done.
 
  • #85
Cave Diver said:
We need proctored tests and grades to know how well students know the material. We also need them so that students get stressed out, do their best, and become better people through developing mechanisms of coping with life, pressure, competition, and having to find ways to do things they hate.
Bravo. Well said.

Future employers also need confidence that graduates have the knowledge needed to do the jobs and that they have performed well under pressure. A grade transcript provides useful clues.
 
  • #86
Cave Diver said:
Mr. Kohn talks nicely but lives in lalaland. If his theories mattered then grades would be a thing of the past. We need proctored tests and grades to know how well students know the material. We also need them so that students get stressed out, do their best, and become better people through developing mechanisms of coping with life, pressure, competition, and having to find ways to do things they hate. You take a wrong turn and you are dead. This is how life is. It's OK for students to take a test and a grade. They will become far more traumatized if they go out there like a bunch of entitled weaklings. That's hard to hear but it shouldn't be. This is how the world has been spinning since prehistory. It won't change for you or me the last 20 years just because we've been pressing buttons on a screen. Why is it so hard to understand the obvious? It's interesting that people with PhDs are capable of confusing reality with wishful thinking to such an extent, or worse, knowingly lie with a straight face. It is equally interesting that other people take them seriously and even more interesting that it is nearly impossible to find any articles criticizing 'ungrading' for what it is: a dishonest and hypocritical device.
I don't agree with this. Knowledge of a subject can be separated from working under pressure. A good tennis coach, for example would assess a player's ability and their mental strength separately.

Also, I had someone working for me who was technically very sound (IT) but flaky under pressure. So, I got him to do what he was good at: writing and testing scripts. But, I wouldn't have asked him to work a weekend on his own.

Your attitude is too all or nothing for me. We ought to make the working environment more inclusive and try to exploit the strengths people have. Not throw people on the scrapheap because they have a weakness.
 
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  • #87
anorlunda said:
A grade transcript provides useful clues.
When I was hiring EEs, I never asked for transcripts. I just didn't care what grade they got in physics. I asked questions; my own impromptu oral exam. No one ever asked for my transcripts either. But solving problems for people is a constant activity. Honestly, I don't know how to compare an A- from Texas Tech to a B- from MIT. Grading just isn't consistent enough to mean much outside of a single institution (maybe inside too).
 
  • #88
DaveE said:
When I was hiring EEs, I never asked for transcripts.
It varied by decade. When grade inflation was rampant, grades became useless. Before the Vietnam War, successful graduation was sufficient evidence. In many cases, the recommendation from a known professor was better than grades. In others, yes you're right interview questions.

Our biggest complaint was that engineering students were deficient in writing and language skills. A consulting company's major products were reports and presentations.
 
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  • #89
symbolipoint said:
Do I/we really need to see the rest of the video?
Let's be open-minded now.

I read the article by Kohn reference by @vela "The Case Against Grades" which elaborate on his ideas and gives examples of their success(?), Have any scientific studies (think double-blind) been conducted comparing ungrading programs to grading programs, and the effect on students' future success? Kohn is down on grading in elementary and high school but doesn't say much about college. For schools that ungrade, he states
Moreover, these schools point out that their students are often more motivated and proficient learners, thus better prepared for college, than their counterparts at traditional schools who have been preoccupied with grades.
"Often more motivated and proficient learners" By not quantifying this statement what do we take it to mean in support of his thesis? He also does not give much advice as to how assessments are to be made except you dare not use numbers.

Something happened during the '60s and '70s. I met one of my ug physics profs several years after graduating, and he commented that students were less hard-working.

Regarding grades reducing the incentive to learn was not my experience. As far as driving students to cheat can we blame increased research misconduct on grading? Some of these students became parents who in recent years tried to bribe university officials to assist in the admission of their children to university. Did their grades make them do it?

Maybe we parents must shoulder some blame for promising too much and not being realistic.
 
  • #90
PeroK said:
I don't agree with this. Knowledge of a subject can be separated from working under pressure. A good tennis coach, for example would assess a player's ability and their mental strength separately.

Also, I had someone working for me who was technically very sound (IT) but flaky under pressure. So, I got him to do what he was good at: writing and testing scripts. But, I wouldn't have asked him to work a weekend on his own.

Your attitude is too all or nothing for me. We ought to make the working environment more inclusive and try to exploit the strengths people have. Not throw people on the scrapheap because they have a weakness.
I don't think that you disagree with anything I actually said. I am not talking about stringent time limits or cut-throat oral examinations, or even interviews for jobs ... (right?) I am talking about fully-proctored, in-class tests with very liberal time limits ... Is this attitude all or nothing for you?

My recommendation letters, and I have written hundreds of them, mean a ton and my grades mean a ton and I make sure I let graduate schools and employers know with great success as you may imagine. Unfortunately, the grades of many of my colleagues mean nothing. That is the truth. They needed to get tenured, promoted, or accepted by students, colleagues, and the community.
 
  • #91
DaveE said:
When I was hiring EEs, I never asked for transcripts. I just didn't care what grade they got in physics. I asked questions; my own impromptu oral exam. No one ever asked for my transcripts either. But solving problems for people is a constant activity. Honestly, I don't know how to compare an A- from Texas Tech to a B- from MIT. Grading just isn't consistent enough to mean much outside of a single institution (maybe inside too).
Any mentally stable MIT student with As in physics, just hire the kid. Let's keep it real, please. Swarthmore? Same thing. Unfortunately that does not solve the problem you describe. Grades mean very little in general. Many As are actually Cs, not Bs. Recommendation letters that strongly interpret grades for you may be of great help. I always do that in my letters.
 
  • #92
symbolipoint said:
Some training systems use a chart of objectives. The person who trains the learner makes a mark to affirm that a specific objective is satisfied. The objectives might or might not be met in any decided sequence. Only important is at some point in the training or during an assessing period, every objective is met. The training administrators could choose to apply a scoring system, or not, depending on how important a scoring system is for the training/learning to be done.
Yes, apply this in a quantum mechanics class, or statistical mechanics, or optics, or electromagnetic theory, or mechanics of materials, or thermodynamics. Break those subjects down to specific "objectives" and assess those on a rolling basis throughout the semester and make it fair so that students do not copy from each other or other sources and truly demonstrate mastery over the semester. Of course, you can do it. If there is no limit to how low you are prepared to place the bar, that is ...
 
  • #93
gleem said:
Let's be open-minded now.

I read the article by Kohn reference by @vela "The Case Against Grades" which elaborate on his ideas and gives examples of their success(?), Have any scientific studies (think double-blind) been conducted comparing ungrading programs to grading programs, and the effect on students' future success? Kohn is down on grading in elementary and high school but doesn't say much about college. For schools that ungrade, he states

"Often more motivated and proficient learners" By not quantifying this statement what do we take it to mean in support of his thesis? He also does not give much advice as to how assessments are to be made except you dare not use numbers.

Something happened during the '60s and '70s. I met one of my ug physics profs several years after graduating, and he commented that students were less hard-working.

Regarding grades reducing the incentive to learn was not my experience. As far as driving students to cheat can we blame increased research misconduct on grading? Some of these students became parents who in recent years tried to bribe university officials to assist in the admission of their children to university. Did their grades make them do it?

Maybe we parents must shoulder some blame for promising too much and not being realistic.
Education is a product. If you wish to increase sales you lower the price, that is, grades are inflated. Health is a product. The most critical one. That is why you are paying an arm and a leg in US ...

It's all about business and the economy and how they evolve over time based on technology. Socio-cultural and political changes are seated on this basis and are of secondary importance in understanding the changes we are discussing, I think. This of course assumes that fundamental human nature does not change much in a couple of millennia or so, which we know is the case.

That is why it is utterly futile to try to resist the trends. But that does not mean that we need to suspend critical thinking. If you must put food on the table, go ahead and un-grade. But this "holy indignation" against grades is not funny ... As I implied before, I am not sure what is more scary, the blatant lie (research shows ... sure it does!), or the feeling that perhaps the un-grading zealots actually believe in what they preach. (A clarification: Of course, there are "fun courses" that can do fine without grades and amazing students who need no grades. The understanding is that we are not discussing these special cases.)
 
  • #94
Cave Diver said:
Education is a product.
Yes, I think this is true. But at one time it was a service that was sought and students were clients, not customers.
 
  • #95
What happened in 1967 was twofold.
  1. The selective service draft exemption had been offered to students. But the Vietnam War caused pressure. Draft exemptions were offered only to students with 3.0 or better. On campus that was translated to mean a grade C or lower was a death penalty.
  2. The baby boomer generation took over from the lost generation. Their numbers, their outlook their behaviors and their entitlement were different to say the least.
 
  • #96
anorlunda said:
On campus that was translated to mean a grade C or lower was a death penalty.

Draft exemption mostly meant that your life will not be interrupted. It wasn't exactly a death sentence although some probably thought it was, with 2.7 M serving and 58 K dying. I know, for those killed it was.

anorlunda said:
The baby boomer generation took over from the lost generation. Their numbers, their outlook their behaviors and their entitlement were different to say the least.
Actually, it was the greatest generation, 1901 -1927 that spawned the baby boomers. Sandwiched between them was the silent generation that suffered during the depression and WWII and benefited from the economic expansion that occurred in the '50s and '60s. We also suffered (and benefited from the IIs classification) through the Vietnam war and don't forget the Korean war. The way I see it the late boomers and X generation are the ones that really started to exhibit a more me attitude. Anyway, it's complicated.
 
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  • #97
PeroK said:
I don't agree with this. Knowledge of a subject can be separated from working under pressure. A good tennis coach, for example would assess a player's ability and their mental strength separately.

Also, I had someone working for me who was technically very sound (IT) but flaky under pressure. So, I got him to do what he was good at: writing and testing scripts. But, I wouldn't have asked him to work a weekend on his own.

Your attitude is too all or nothing for me. We ought to make the working environment more inclusive and try to exploit the strengths people have. Not throw people on the scrapheap because they have a weakness.

This reminds me of a discussion I had about public speaking, and being required in school. No job I've ever had has chosen the bad public speakers to do the public speaking. In the workforce, people are naturally assigned tasks based on strengths and weaknesses, because this is the best way to get the job done and make money.
 
  • #98
JLowe said:
This reminds me of a discussion I had about public speaking, and being required in school. No job I've ever had has chosen the bad public speakers to do the public speaking.
I'm not sure I understand your point, but public speaking is definitely a skill that can be learned and improved upon. Even if in the end the student still is not great at public speaking, they are likely better at it due to the instruction (assuming a good and patient teacher). I learned a huge amount from such classes and from taking part in speech competitions, and it has served me very well over the years. My father was a member of Toastmasters as well, which was part of my motivation to take the classes in high school and get more comfortable speaking in front of large groups. :smile:
 
  • #99
berkeman said:
I'm not sure I understand your point, but public speaking is definitely a skill that can be learned and improved upon. Even if in the end the student still is not great at public speaking, they are likely better at it due to the instruction (assuming a good and patient teacher). I learned a huge amount from such classes and from taking part in speech competitions, and it has served me very well over the years. My father was a member of Toastmasters as well, which was part of my motivation to take the classes in high school and get more comfortable speaking in front of large groups. :smile:
I'm not saying it's a skill that can't be learned, I'm saying that its rare people that aren't good at it are gonna have to do it at their job.
 
  • #100
JLowe said:
I'm not saying it's a skill that can't be learned, I'm saying that its rare people that aren't good at it are gonna have to do it at their job.
https://www.toastmasters.org/

:smile:
 
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