Admissions Why do Colleges Want "Well Rounded" Students?

[Vanadium 50]

Shimer is tiny - a dozen faculty and a hundred students. It is not bad. It has over the years been associated with the University of Chicago and Illinois Tech. It's a Great Books College, which may be OK if you are studying literature or philosophy, but you really don't want to learn your physics from Newton and Maxwell.

(I may be wrong - Roland Winston graduated from there, and as they say he has forgotten more physics than I will ever learn)

I certainly believe a formula might put it at the bottom - or the top - of a list because it is so different, but don't see how looking at an oddball (that nonetheless has similar admissions policies to other schools discussed) will shed a lot of light on the situation.

 

[bhobba]

Shimer is tiny - a dozen faculty and a hundred students. It is not bad. It has over the years been associated with the University of Chicago and Illinois Tech. It's a Great Books College, which may be OK if you are studying literature or philosophy, but you really don't want to learn your physics from Newton and Maxwell.

Now it is integrated into a traditional college. You do it instead of your general ed requirements. It is about 11 subjects, not including a senior thesis, which most good programs have anyway (mine certainly did). It is just historically interesting reading about these past scientists; you learn your actual science from usual courses.

I like the older curriculum better, which had about the same number of courses. The one that would interest people here is the old Bachelor Of Science program. You come in with 40 credits in whatever you like, do two great book subjects - What is Light and Modern Physics and a math subject covering Godel etc. The usual first-year subjects, depending on your 40 credits, you get credit for from an evaluation or test out. Go to Oxford for a year, then work on your final thesis, some self-study subjects, and History and Philosophy of the West a year later.

The details, though, are not the important thing; the important thing is many great schools need not be 'elite'.

I will do a Shimer post a bit later. Others may be interested in this different school.

Winston is a great scientist (specialising in optics if I remember correctly). He started at Shimer at 14 instead of HS using their early entrance program. When he graduated, he went to Chicago for his Bachelor of Science, which he completed in just two years, and then his graduate work. Shimer attracted a lot of students like that - bored or disengaged with HS.

Thanks
Bill

 

[AndreasC]

Well I'm thoroughly confused.

Good doesn't mean better and better doesn't mean good, perhaps that is the source of your confusion.

It's not the system.

It is the system. As I said, differences will exist. But not everywhere has "elite", hyper competitive places with a massive difference from the others, and manage concentrate all the wealthiest people. And some of them have pretty good institutions. In my country we don't have so great institutions because they are very underfunded, but most of them are pretty much at the same level. There are some world famous researchers working in some of the least competitive places here, and although wealth still plays some small part (it's hard for poor people to study in general), it's nothing like the US, because every place is free. This is similar to the situation in many places in Europe, @bhobba will tell you about Australia.

I am not saying that to present my country as a success story, the unis are having a lot of trouble due to overall problems in the country, and there are certainly a lot of downsides to the particulars of the system. My point is to show that differences can exist, elite universities are not a law of nature. In fact to a certain degree this particular culture is only seen in the elite places of the US and UK. That's where every super rich person who gave a damn about education (or at least their parents did) I know went, they didn't go to ETH or Sapienza or god forbid Lomonosov, even though they are very highly ranked.

(The ones who didn't give a damn at all went to some ridiculous degree mills and adult kinder gartens).

 

[gwnorth]

since taking the best students

You are mistaken if you think it is the mission of Harvard to admit the best and brightest students. It is not and that isn't what they claim in their mission statement either

The mission of Harvard College is to educate the citizens and citizen-leaders for our society. We do this through our commitment to the transformative power of a liberal arts and sciences education.

Harvard admits the students who they believe will be future influencers and who will be able to raise their profile and most importantly donate back.

 

[gleem]

You are mistaken if you think it is the mission of Harvard to admit the best and brightest students. It is not and that isn't what they claim in their mission statement either

I never said that was their mission statement. I said they attracted the best and the brightest. (and thus admitted the best and the brightest)

Harvard admits the students who they believe will be future influencers and who will be able to raise their profile and most importantly donate back.

I don't see that in the mission statement but don't all institutions of higher learning seek these types of students? Harvard has almost two hundred years on most schools in forming a huge influential alumni base.

 

[gwnorth]

I never said that was their mission statement. I said they attracted the best and the brightest. (and thus admitted the best and the brightest) I don't see that in the mission statement but don't all institutions of higher learning seek these types of students? Harvard has almost two hundred years on most schools in forming a huge influential alumni base.

If Harvard's goal was to admit the best and brightest then their admissions process would not be holistic. They would base admissions on high school GPA and test scores. They don't. They make allowances for institutional need (ALDC admits) who frequently have lower academic credentials and include subjective personality ratings. Undergraduate education at Harvard is predominantly about social networking. They are the LinkedIn of the university world.

 

[gleem]

If Harvard's goal was to admit the best and brightest then their admissions process would not be holistic. They would base admissions on high school GPA and test scores. They don't. They make allowances for institutional need (ALDC admits) who frequently have lower academic credentials and include subjective personality ratings. Undergraduate education at Harvard is predominantly about social networking. They are the LinkedIn of the university world.

Perhaps you could tell us the source of your insights into Harvard's admission procedures.

There are 3.7 M high school graduates. Harvard has over 55,000 applicants each year,1.5% of HS graduates. They accept 2000 students. They draw from the smartest, most expressive, most involved, most challenged, most ambitious, and most confident students each year. If not the best and or brightest then what are they? We all know academic achievement is but a single element of the profile of the best and brightest (although hardly the best predictor of success) with the other elements reflected in their successes in being recognized for accomplishments and assessed by others.

Harvard wants the best and brightest to apply and entices them by offering them a path to the realization of their ambitions. If it benefits Harvard all the better. All good universities do the same. Like any competition, there is a leader and currently Harvard is it.

 

[vela]

Perhaps you could tell us the source of your insights into Harvard's admission procedures.

There have been many recent news stories about Harvard's admissions criteria because the Supreme Court was expected to rule on a case in which Harvard was defending its practices. The Court ultimately issued a decision earlier this year that ruled affirmative action unconstitutional.

Some Asian-American candidates felt discriminated against because they were rejected even though they were better qualified objectively than students who were admitted. Ironically, it was Harvard's holistic approach that deemed them deficient in "personality" and therefore not suitable for admission.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Students_for_Fair_Admissions_v._Harvard

 

[Vanadium 50]

The Court ultimately issued a decision earlier this year that ruled affirmative action unconstitutional.

I wouldn't say that exactly.

Affirmative action, as it is usually thought of was ruled unconstitutional in Bakke in 1978. This suit did two things - it opened up a lot of the admissions process, and showed that Harvard was deliberately trying to circumvent Baake (hey, what does the Supreme Court know anyway - most of them went to Yale anyway) and it granted standing to Asian-Americans. It had been argued that they were not "real" minorities.

But apart from increasing the transparency of Harvard's process, I am not sure of the relevance, as we have been told that the problem isn't with Harvard. It;s with Kenyon and its ilk: colleges that strive for excellence but have small endowments and thus cannot offer a ton of financial aid.

 

[bhobba]

I still do not get this concern with Harvard. It's a great school - but far from the only one. I believe Harvey Mudd, for example, is not well known at all, but is at least Harvards equal.

Why not simply research schools and aim for the one that suits you best? The US has the most vibrant tertiary sector in the world. The list I would personally look at is the schools that send the most students to graduate schools. Who they are can be surprising:

https://www.collegetransitions.com/dataverse/top-feeders-phd-programs

Harvard is there, but not at the top.

Thanks
Bill

 

[vela]

I still do not get this concern with Harvard.

We were just using Harvard as the poster child for some of the controversy about admissions to highly ranked schools.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Harvard is. after all. the second-best college in Cambridge, Massachusetts,

 

[bhobba]

Harvard is. after all. the second-best college in Cambridge, Massachusetts,

No prizes for guessing the best

Thanks
Bill

 

[CookieSalesman]

Why would this be true? This would only seem compelling in selective universities. In other universities, they'll take students who can afford the tuition.

 

[CrysPhys]

Why would this be true? This would only seem compelling in selective universities. In other universities, they'll take students who can afford the tuition.

<<Emphasis added>> There are 73 posts prior to yours. What does your "this" refer to?

 

[Hornbein]

I went to an ordinary college then transferred to an elite one. The quality of education was the same but the student body was very different.

 

[CrysPhys]

I went to an ordinary college then transferred to an elite one. The quality of education was the same but the student body was very different.

Oh, your reply is open to so many tempting one liners.

 

[mathwonk]

@bhobba: my guess: Lesley?

 

[CrysPhys]

@bhobba: my guess: Lesley?

How positively bizarre! Some strange delayed telepathy going on. When Reply #73 was first posted, I was right on the verge of replying "Lesley?" (even though I graduated from the same school in Cambridge that V50 did). Many decades ago, Lesley University was Lesley College, known as an elite college for future elementary school teachers. It still resonates with me today because one of the most beautiful women I've ever met in my entire life was a student there (...long wistful sigh...).

 

[Vanadium 50]

because one of the most beautiful women I've ever met in my entire life was a student there

I think you are using a different definition of "well-rounded" than the OP.

 

[MidgetDwarf]

 

[Vanadium 50]

Since this thread has drifted into a...more Cambridge, Massachusetts-oriented direction...

An engineer and a maiden were sitting in a park
The engineer was working on some research after dark
His scientific method was a marvel to observe
While his right hand checked the figures, his left hand traced the curves,

(from the MIT Engineers Drinking Song)

 

[symbolipoint]

While starting to read the wikipedia article on "polymath" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polymath I began to be reminded of this forum topic about colleges wanting well rounded people.

 

[snorkack]

In order to keep out Jews, without explicitly saying so?
Back in 19th...early 20th century, many elite colleges had exams based on academic criteria. The universities saw what they thought a problem - Jews were too smart and got too many places. So they moved the goalposts to be less transparent and keep Jews out without visibly showing it. (Same issue with Asians).

 

[docnet]

Just to add, private universities want to accept students who have a higher probability of becoming wealthy donors after graduation.

 

[pinball1970]

In order to keep out Jews, without explicitly saying so?
Back in 19th...early 20th century, many elite colleges had exams based on academic criteria. The universities saw what they thought a problem - Jews were too smart and got too many places. So they moved the goalposts to be less transparent and keep Jews out without visibly showing it. (Same issue with Asians).

Feynman was rejected on this basis from Columbia in the 30s, he ended up doing his PhD somewhere else.

 

[gmax137]

In order to keep out Jews, without explicitly saying so?
Back in 19th...early 20th century, many elite colleges had exams based on academic criteria. The universities saw what they thought a problem - Jews were too smart and got too many places. So they moved the goalposts to be less transparent and keep Jews out without visibly showing it. (Same issue with Asians).

Wait, are you saying Jews are not "well rounded?" Seriously?

 

[pinball1970]

Wait, are you saying Jews are not "well rounded?" Seriously?

With 22% of Nobel prizes yet only 0.175% of the population,I think they are good!

 

[gmax137]

Feynman was rejected on this basis from Columbia in the 30s, he ended up doing his PhD somewhere else.

Rejected from Columbia undergrad, he went to MIT instead. He did his PhD at Princeton.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Feynman

 

[pinball1970]

Rejected from Columbia undergrad, he went to MIT instead. He did his PhD at Princeton.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Feynman

That was it.