Why do we use squared quantities in equations and formulae?

  • Context: High School 
  • Thread starter Thread starter sophiecentaur
  • Start date Start date
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the use of squared quantities in equations and formulae, exploring the reasons behind this mathematical practice. Participants examine the implications of using squares versus magnitudes, the continuity of functions, and the definitions of absolute values and functions in mathematics.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants suggest that squared quantities are used because they convey magnitude without direction, as seen in expressions like v² and c².
  • There is a discussion about the continuity of functions, with some arguing that using squares provides better continuity around zero compared to square roots.
  • Participants debate the definition of absolute value, with some asserting that |a| = √(a²) is a definition, while others argue it is a property.
  • Some contributions highlight that the square root function is defined to yield a non-negative result, which is necessary for it to be a function.
  • There are claims that in certain contexts, such as ballistics, multiple correct answers can exist, challenging the notion of a single positive root.
  • The nature of functions is contested, with discussions about single-valued versus multi-valued functions and the implications of discontinuities.
  • Some participants emphasize the need for clarity in definitions and assumptions when discussing mathematical concepts.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express multiple competing views on the definitions and implications of squared quantities, absolute values, and the nature of functions. The discussion remains unresolved, with no consensus reached on several key points.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include varying interpretations of mathematical definitions, assumptions about continuity and differentiability, and the scope of discussions regarding functions and their properties.

  • #31
etotheipi said:
@sophiecentaur I really have a hard time understanding what you're trying to say. The fact that functions are single valued (by definition) is a critical property.
Strongly agree. In the example posted by @sophiecentaur, ##x^2 + y^2 = 1##, y is most definitely NOT a function of x. The same is true for the other conic sections. For the circle equation, solving for y yields ##y = \pm \sqrt{1 - x^2}##, so for each x, with ##x \ne \pm 1##, there are two y values.
sophiecentaur said:
Afaics, it's important to qualify statements about the 'meaning' of Root x.
No. Although a positive real number has two square roots, the symbol ##\sqrt x## is taken by convention to mean the principal, or positive square root. Why else do you think there's a +/- symbol in the Quadratic Formula; i.e., the solutions to ##ax^2 + bx + c = 0## are given by ##x = \frac{b^2 \pm \sqrt{b^2 - 4ac}}{2a}##.
sophiecentaur said:
I think you mean a continuously differentiable function. There are plenty of functions with first derivatives that aren't continuous. Triangular waves, cycloids and x2 = y
No, he (@etotheipi) meant plain old functions. BTW, ##x^2 = y## is continuous and has derivatives of all orders. ##\frac{dy}{dx} = 2x##. OTOH, if you meant ##y^2 = x \Leftrightarrow y = \pm \sqrt x##, then y is not a function of x. (Each positive x value is paired with two y values.)
sophiecentaur said:
Perhaps the vocabulary has changed in 50 years. (Which is possible.)
No, it hasn't. From Calculus and Analytic Geometry, by Abraham Schwartz, 2nd Ed., published in 1967: (emphasis added by me)
Function; domain; range. We are given a set of numbers, which we shall call the domain D, and instructions for associating a number y with each number x of D. The set of all numbers y associated with numbers x of D shall be called the range R. The correspondence thus created between the sets D and R shall be called a function.
The relationship here is either a one-to-one relationship (e.g. y = f(x) = 2x) or many-to-one (e.g., y = g(x) = sin(x). By definition, a function cannot be one-to-many (e.g. ##y^2 = x## or equivalently ##y = \pm \sqrt x##).
The First Edition appeared in 1960, which is 60 years ago. I'm positive the definition of a function didn't change between the two editions.
sophiecentaur said:
"By definition" is too strong. You are stating that the default actually exists.
No, "by definition" is not too strong. One definition of the absolute value is ##|x| = \sqrt{x^2}##, for all real numbers x.

A.T. said:
How can "by definition" be too strong? It just a convention about what a word means in a certain context, that is most widely accepted.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Klystron, weirdoguy, etotheipi and 1 other person
Mathematics news on Phys.org
  • #32
I do take all of your points and I clearly have mistaken how the word "function" is strictly defined. So the term is mi-used a lot? Perhaps and it wouldn't be the only commonly mis-used term.
 
  • #33
sophiecentaur said:
I do take all of your points and I clearly have mistaken how the word "function" is strictly defined. So the term is mi-used a lot? Perhaps and it wouldn't be the only commonly mis-used term.
Yes, it's misused a lot. A test that can be used to determine whether a graph represents a function is the vertical line test. If a vertical line is swept along the horizontal axis and never intersects more than one point, the graph is that of a function. This would show that the graph of a circle isn't that of a function, nor is the graph of the other conic sections, including, say, ##y^2 = x##.
Also, we have had many threads over the years where people are confused about the meaning of ##\sqrt x##, thinking that it represents two values.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: sophiecentaur
  • #34
Mark44 said:
Also, we have had many threads over the years where people are confused about the meaning of ##\sqrt x##, thinking that it represents two values.
Ahh - and the 'quadratic solving formula' actually includes the term +/-√(4ac) to take care of that. It was hiding from me in plain sight!
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: pbuk

Similar threads

  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
2K
  • · Replies 14 ·
Replies
14
Views
3K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 50 ·
2
Replies
50
Views
8K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
3K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
3K
  • · Replies 16 ·
Replies
16
Views
4K