bahamagreen said:
Long time guitarist... some things to consider about this.
1] The tone controls on old HiFi systems were generally designed to have a place in the middle of the knob that neither added nor subtracted frequencies... a "flat" position in the middle. Setting all the tones to their middle position approximated a "flat response".
The tone controls on musical instrument amplifiers do not work that way at all! They use a circuit called a tone stack, because of the way the circuit sends the signal through each control in a "stacked" arrangement, like the steps of a ladder.
First, the signal is reduced, and then recovered by turning up the tone controls. They only "add" back up to the level prior to the reduction before the tone stack.
For a tone stack with a treble, middle, and bass tone control, the treble and bass controls only work in the "add" direction. Their flat position is when they are set to their minimum position.
The middle tone control is actually not a tone control but an insertion loss compensation - it raises the whole frequency response curve up and down, and its "neutral" position is going to be at about "8" for the typical knob marked "1-10".
Now, a lot of guitarists assume that the "flat" setting is to set all the tone knobs to their halfway up middle positions, but this is incorrect. Doing that will boost the high end and the low end and dip the middle... this is called a "scooped" curve, as in the middle has been scooped out.
The middle range is where all the good tone is on the guitar, so this is a very bad but common error in general, and why so many guitarists have a bassy muddy and tinny antagonizing sound without the richness and depth that comes from projecting the middle range voice.
So, the first thing of all is to start with the treble and bass tones all the way down and the middle up near full - then adjust as needed from there based on the venue acoustics.
One cannot assume the above to be true simply because different brand/models were/are made differently. Even "back in the day" while Fender and it's multitude of copycats used "cut" controls, most Ampegs used feedback tone controls that both boosted and cut depending on setting, though midway was not very accurate for flat.
## incidentally, Ampeg borrowed that design from among other places, Dynaco kit stero preamps like the PAS-3 and Pat-4. Those had the center detente which effectively pulls the controls out of the circuit but only a very few stereo preamps and no guitar amps had or have this.
Furthermore setting ones' tone controls for flat response in the amp is a guarantee of absolutely nothing since the resulting room sound is further colored by speakers, placement, and room acoustics including variables such as how many people are in it.
IMHO the issues of getting "Your Tone" and faithfully reproducing that for the audience are two different problems with different solutions. Those solutions depend to a great degree upon the seriousness and commitment of the band.
While it is by no means wise, the age old setup of PA strictly for vocals, fire it up and let 'er rip and let the chips fall where they may is still viable if it's just for casual fun.
OTOH, if your band is serious and willing and able to go for professional sound that sounds as close to the same everywhere this requires instrument reinforcement as well as for vocals. There is a huge advantage to the guitar player in such a setup because his amp becomes essentially his own instrument stage monitor. I prefer the old Fender Tilt-Back legs and setting my amp up facing me from in front of me so everywhere I go my amp is at the same distance and angle, just 6-8 feet from my ears giving me very close to the same exact sound no matter what stage I'm on. Since it is aimed towards me and away from the crowd there is vastly reduced high end perceivable by the audience from my amp. That gets corrected by mic'ing my amp and adjusting for a balanced band sound in the PA.
As for finding "your sound" while you may have had success by the "0-5-0" initial setup this is not universal for all players or all amps. Most just play around till it sounds good to them but I do agree it is valuable to understand how your tone controls (all of them, amp and guitar) work.
Even within a brand, tone controls can be extremely different. For example Fender Black Face and subsequent designs have the tone controls
BEFORE the volume control. This was done in an effort to make amps sound more similar at different volume settings. That makes it possible (sort of) to have one amp that was useful in a variety of venue sizes. However it also sacrifices tonal dynamics.
Fender Tweed, Classic Marshall, Vox AC30 and all of that ilk have the tone controls in a low impedance circuit
AFTER the volume control and at least one amplification device apart. On Tube/Valve amps this tone section was (and still is on some brand/models) driven by a Direct-Coupled, Cathode Follower, which because it has a maximum gain of Unity, acts as a limiter at higher volume settings. This creates "driven tone controls" which can have an immense effect on overdrive harmonics and thus the way you set your amp or can and should set your amp.
There is a distinct, and to many players, important advantage to this last arrangement in that tone color can change just from how hard you pick strings. This creates a very dynamic, vocal quality adding considerable variety and emotion to lead playing and even some rhythm playing, with the latter also depending a lot on musical genre.
Add to this, that some guitars have what in effect is a "brightness" bypass capacitor on the guitar's volume control (highly recommended you try this if you haven't already) which has the effect of substantially increasing bass content as one turns up at the guitar. The theory behind this, especially for a band with a single guitar player covering both rhythm and lead, is that when playing chords (multiple strings having higher output) which are commonly meant to be behind a vocal, all you commonly need is a little clarity of tone to fill in effectively while not "stepping on vocals and other players. However when it is time for a lead, commonly one or two strings (having reduced output as well as less bottom from the common use of higher strings and frets) can be given great power when the bass is added incrementally with volume on the guitar. I can go from a crisp, clean whisper to a thunderous scream just from my guitar volume alone. Furthermore when at higher settings if I pick lightly I get a beautiful tentative but barely restrained sound that changes to a growl when I hit harder. This arrangement is extremely versatile and dynamic, and most importantly, simple and intuitive while playing.
bahamagreen said:
2] The sound you hear on stage is different from the sound heard out front by the audience. If you set the tones so that it "sounds right" from where you stand on stage to play, it will just microwave the audience with punishing high end. If you take a long cable and stand out front during sound check and set the tone just right, it will sound muffled and damped from where you stand on stage to play... you have to learn how to hear and accept that sound for the sake of your audience, or use a stage monitor.
Or, as noted above, separate stage sound from audience sound as much as is possible.
bahamagreen said:
3] Amp placement is critical. Putting amps on stands, chairs, or otherwise elevating them only acts to increase their projection of high frequencies. This helps the guitarist on stage hear his amp but kills the audience. It also reduces the bass level because the floor is not close enough to serve as a reinforcing barrier. This causes guitarists to increase the bass level at the amp's tone control, with labors the amp unnecessarily, and tends to make the sound boomy with a strong amp, and flabby or bloated with a weaker amp.
Much better is to place the amp on the floor and let that reinforce the bass response without using the bass tone control - the sound will be more naturally conducted to the venue space.
You don't want much low end anyway; it will overlap the bass player's range and make things sound muddy.
Very good points! I too prefer guitar amps be on the floor, just tilted to face me.
bahamagreen said:
4] Size and shape of the venue space make a difference, but the major contributor is going to be the absorption or reflection from the composition of the barriers (floor, walls, ceiling, windows)... concrete, tile, metal, wood, glass, carpeting, etc. The number of people also makes a difference, as they absorb sound as well.
You say your basement is tiny, so maybe all your listening there is "near field", that can sound very "hot" in the high end. So, I would suggest, first; make sure your home amp is on the floor and knock the tones down. If that is not enough, do some room treatments to decrease high end reflections. Add more furniture, more complex surfaces, hang some rugs, carpet the floor, try to place some curved surfaces around any bare spots on the walls, etc.
The venue with the well behaved amp may just have a more enlightened management that has taken some steps to improve the acoustical space, or the amp may just be a darker voiced amp.
In general, use the tone controls on your guitar to make your amp sound right when the amp tones are set to "flat" (treble and bass down, middle up). Do this at low volume to minimize room effects and use that as your basis. Then use your amp tones to make the amp sound right when you take it to various venues with different acoustic spaces.
Anyway, give some of these things a try and see if it helps.
I agree with much of the first part of this last comment but strongly disagree with the part I emboldened. Certainly it is worth a try, but this kind of setup is based on the "amp as sound reinforcement" concept, rather than "amp as instrument" concept, and in either case is extremely limiting. It essentially demands your amp "be dumb" and contribute little or nothing to your sound. This may be fine for acoustic guitars but even those generally are better served by mic'ing through the PA or by contact mic's built into the bridge/nut.
When we are talking about an electric guitar, and given that the OP is employing a Rat distortion device, I am certain he is not looking for an acoustic tone which makes the emboldened section minimally valuable at best.
As in most threads, it is much easier to give specific advice when we are given information about the environment, equipment, and desired function than when left to guess-timate. There are more different kinds of guitar players than there are even different kinds of guitars. Throw in strings, pickups, amps, pedals/rack effects, speakers, etc and we have a very wide and complex situation.