Why does relativity not affect the speed of light?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the nature of the speed of light and its invariance across different frames of reference, exploring why it remains constant while the speed of other objects can vary depending on the observer's frame. Participants delve into concepts from special relativity, the implications of measuring speed in a vacuum, and the foundational principles that lead to the conclusion of light's constant speed.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question why the speed of light is independent of the frame of reference, contrasting it with the variable speeds of other objects.
  • Others assert that the invariance of the speed of light is a fundamental aspect of relativity, derived from experimental observations.
  • A few participants propose that the speed of light being constant is a postulate of special relativity, leading to consequences such as time dilation and length contraction.
  • There are discussions about the implications of measuring speed in deep space, with some arguing that without a reference point, measuring light's speed seems problematic.
  • Some participants mention that the speed of light has been measured in various frames of reference, suggesting that this supports its invariance.
  • Others point out that the definition of speed relies on a reference frame, raising questions about how light's speed can be measured in a vacuum.
  • There are references to historical perspectives, including the transition from Newtonian to Einsteinian relativity, and the implications of Maxwell's equations on the understanding of light as an electromagnetic wave.
  • Some participants express skepticism about the concept of proof in scientific theories, comparing it to the law of conservation of mass.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the implications of measuring the speed of light in deep space or the nature of its invariance. Multiple competing views remain regarding the foundational principles of relativity and the interpretation of experimental evidence.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on definitions of speed and reference frames, as well as the unresolved nature of measuring light's speed in a vacuum. The discussion also touches on the historical context of relativity without resolving the implications of these historical perspectives.

  • #31
ImStein said:
when flat-looking representations of spacetime, such as Minkowski diagrams, admit to being non-Euclidean, aren't they effectively saying they aren't really flat?

No. "Flat" in the context of spacetime means "Minkowski". More generally, "flat" for any manifold with a well-defined Riemann tensor means the Riemann tensor vanishes. Minkowski spacetime satisfies that definition.

ImStein said:
I believe the tangent vectors you refer to apply to curves occurring within the spatial 3-surface

Doesn't matter. Any curve that stays within a spacelike hypersurface will have tangent vectors that are everywhere spacelike.

ImStein said:
The lightlike velocity vector (Vmax) diagramed above is a tangent of the spatial 3-surface externally.

No, it isn't. No lightlike vector can be tangent to any curve that lies entirely within a spacelike hypersurface. See above. The fact that your drawing represents it that way means your drawing is wrong.

ImStein said:
As with flatness, you seem extraordinarily certain.

That's because I am. I'm talking about precise definitions (of flatness) and proven mathematical theorems (about the properties of tangent vectors that I stated above). If you're not familiar with the relevant math, I strongly suggest that you become so. A good, if advanced, reference is Hawking & Ellis.

ImStein said:
Your model describes but does not explain a universal speed limit essential to physics.

For your definition of "explain", perhaps not. For my definition of "explain", saying that the "universal speed limit" is a geometric property of spacetime is just fine as an explanation.

ImStein said:
The model I gave does.

No, it doesn't, because it's incorrect. See above. An incorrect model can't explain anything.
 
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  • #32
ImStein said:
My impression is that both π and c are ratios of separations, thus ultimately dimensionless
No, this is clearly wrong. Obviously c is dimensionful, its value changes with different unit choices and in SI units it has dimensions of L/T. In contrast, the value of π does not depend on the units and it has no dimensions in any system of units.

If you wish to pursue this line of reasoning, please provide a professional scientific reference which agrees with your reasoning.
 
  • #33
ImStein said:
Though not peer reviewed, I don't think he's attempting to mislead anyone with his 24-lecture course on Time,

I don't think he's attempting to mislead either, but the fact remains that in anything that is done for a lay audience, scientists can get away with things that they could not get away with in a peer-reviewed publication. For whatever reason, it seems that few if any scientists are capable of not doing so. My personal belief is that, without the pushback of peer review to call them on it when they go beyond what is established, scientists, being human, simply aren't capable of being careful enough about what they say.
 
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