Why Does This Seemingly Nonsensical Argument Hold?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the validity of an argument related to the distribution of vectors in velocity space, particularly focusing on the mathematical implications of associating vector quantities with the surface area of a sphere in that space. Participants explore the conceptual and mathematical aspects of this argument, questioning its coherence and implications in both classical and quantum contexts.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • One participant argues that the claim regarding the proportionality of vectors to the area of the sphere (4πv²) is mathematically nonsensical, comparing it to the complexities of dealing with infinities.
  • Another participant suggests that the relevant quantity is the shell volume (4πv² dv), indicating that the number of vectors corresponds to the volume in velocity space, which could be understood through a uniform distribution of points.
  • A third participant raises the possibility that the underlying issues may relate to quantum mechanics, hinting at deeper questions regarding the argument's validity.
  • Further, a participant references Boltzmann's historical approach to using a lattice of points in velocity space, suggesting that this method can be justified within a quantum mechanical framework, connecting particle velocity to wave properties through de Broglie's relation.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the mathematical validity of the argument, with some supporting the idea of a lattice in velocity space while others question its coherence. The discussion remains unresolved with multiple competing perspectives on the topic.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge that the argument raises additional questions, particularly regarding the implications of quantum mechanics and the assumptions underlying the use of a lattice in velocity space.

aaaa202
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I've sometimes seen this argument being used:

The amount of vectors with a given velocity is propotional to the area of the sphere given by:
4πv2, because there are more vectors corresponding to bigger speeds.

But mathematically this is nonsense to me, pretty much like comparing infinities. There are an infinite amount of vectors corresponding to any speed apart from zero speaking strictly mathematical.

So why is that on a deeper level makes this argument of "nonsense" hold?
 
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It's the shell volume 4\pi v^2 dv which is larger. If we imagine different vectors v, distributed as a uniform fine lattice of points in velocity-space, then the number of points in the shell will be proportional to the shell volume.

I realize this 'answer' raises other issues, but I hope it is of some help.
 
Yes exactly, and it is probably these other "questions" that I think about. Is it something quantum mechanical?
 
Yes. Boltzmann (working before quantum theory) did effectively use a lattice of points, but it was arbitrary. How brilliant! Now we can justify the lattice quantum mechanically. In a crude treatment the molecules are matter waves of wavelength related to particle velocity by de Broglie's relation,
mv=\frac{h}{\lambda}. The wavelengths, \lambda, are fixed by boundary conditions for standing waves in a box. The lattice of points in velocity space emerges very simply from this.
 

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