Why I hate the english language.

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SUMMARY

This discussion highlights the complexities and inconsistencies of the English language, particularly focusing on the "I before E except after C" rule, which is often misapplied. Participants point out numerous exceptions, such as "foreigner" and "society," and discuss the challenges posed by homophones like "to, too, two" and "wrought, rot." The conversation also touches on the frustrations of learning English grammar in educational settings, especially for those pursuing technical fields like Electrical Engineering.

PREREQUISITES
  • Understanding of English phonetics and pronunciation rules
  • Familiarity with common English spelling rules and exceptions
  • Knowledge of homophones and their implications in language
  • Awareness of the challenges faced by non-native English speakers
NEXT STEPS
  • Research the various exceptions to English spelling rules, particularly "I before E"
  • Explore the concept of homophones and their usage in English
  • Study the impact of language inconsistencies on learning and communication
  • Investigate technical communication standards in engineering education
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Language learners, educators, linguists, and professionals in technical fields seeking to improve their understanding of English language intricacies and communication standards.

  • #31
Sorry! said:
How's that make a difference in how the word is pronounced? women = wimen?

Yes.

Edit: Actually it's more like "wimin"
 
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  • #32
lisab said:
Yes.

Edit: Actually it's more like "wimin"

lol who says WOMen like WIMIN that's weird.
 
  • #33
Sorry! said:
lol who says WOMen like WIMIN that's weird.

I think you're thinking "woman". Woman = WOM-an, Women = WIM-in
 
  • #34
Tobias Funke said:
He wrote women, not woman.

Sorry! said:
How's that make a difference in how the word is pronounced? women = wimen?

So, Sorry! do you pronounce "woman" and "women" the same way?

Edit: The lovely and talented LisaB beat me to it. :smile:

Sorry! One's plural and one's singular, yes?
 
  • #35
yeah one is WO-Man and the other is WO-men do you pronounce men as min?

'There are some great looking min over there.'

haha what?
 
  • #36
Sorry! said:
yeah one is WO-Man and the other is WO-men do you pronounce men as min?

'There are some great looking min over there.'

haha what?

Yes :smile:! In the word "women" the "men" is pronounced "min," but the word "men" is pronounced "men."

It's not logical; it's English. Which, I presume, is why the OP hates it.
 
  • #37
lisab said:
Yes :smile:! In the word "women" the "men" is pronounced "min," but the word "men" is pronounced "men."

It's not logical; it's English. Which, I presume, is why the OP hates it.

Hahaha. That's SO weird, to me it's still 'men' in wo-men.

I wonder do you guys also pronounce 'cavalry and calvary' the same way?

What about mischievous this one to me sounds like 'mis-chiev-ous' I hear people say 'mis-cheev-eee-ous' ha.

It's interesting to see how other people pronounce words though :P

EDIT: I've been sitting here saying the word women and it sounds to me like I'm saying 'w-uh-mmm-en' (as in end) and when I say woman it's more like 'w-uh-mmm-an' (as in and). :-p I looked it up in the dictionary and it says \ˈwi-mən\
 
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  • #38
Yes ! In the word "women" the "men" is pronounced "min," but the word "men" is pronounced "men."
"Men" and "min" would be pronounced the same way. Unless you pronounce "men" with the "e" sounding like the "e" in "egg".
What about mischievous this one to me sounds like 'mis-chiev-ous' I hear people say 'mis-cheev-eee-ous' ha.

It's interesting to see how other people pronounce words though :P
The English pronounce words funny. Like Aluminum. They say al-oo-min-ee-um. It's not even spelled that way. There would have to be an "I" before the last "U" for that to be a legitimate pronunciation. But I guess they put the I there to compensate.
I've been sitting here saying the word women and it sounds to me like I'm saying 'w-uh-mmm-en' (as in end) and when I say woman it's more like 'w-uh-mmm-an' (as in and).
Women is pronounced like "whimin."
Woman is pronounced like "wuhmun." That "wuh" part isn't exactly right, but it's the closest sound I can find to it. And the last "mun" part isn't exactly right either, but it doesn't quite have the "min" sound, so I gave it the "mun" sound. When you say it, it's more like you're trying to put that M right next to the N as close as possible.
 
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  • #39
leroyjenkens said:
The English pronounce words funny. Like Aluminum. They say al-oo-min-ee-um. It's not even spelled that way. There would have to be an "I" before the last "U" for that to be a legitimate pronunciation.

There is in a real english dictionary. :wink:
 
  • #40
Kurdt said:
There is in a real english dictionary. :wink:

I edited my post. I didn't think that they would most likely have a different spelling too.
 
  • #41
trough, tough, through, borough.. (o-)ugh!
 
  • #42
Tobias Funke said:
He wrote women, not woman.
This thread wouldn't exist if he didn't know that.
i think you mean this thread wouldn't exist if he DID know rhat,. if he DIDNt know that the thread would and DID exist, as seen in the op, where he incorrectly states that ''soceity'' does not meet the i before e rule!
 
  • #43
sportsstar469 said:
i think you mean this thread wouldn't exist if he DID know rhat,. if he DIDNt know that the thread would and DID exist, as seen in the op, where he incorrectly states that ''soceity'' does not meet the i before e rule!

Ok people keep saying this in this thread. How does society follow 'i before except after c'?

I am quite sure its so-c-i-e-ty. So according to the rule it should be spelt so-c-e-i-ty. Because i should not come before e since it is after c.
 
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  • #44
Moonbear said:
I actually view it as the opposite. As long as spelling is reasonably close, I can usually read quickly over some typos or misspellings. When grammar and punctuation are discarded, it takes a lot more time to read and process what something says, and leaves a lot of room for misinterpretation. I also don't think the shift key is all that hard to reach for on a keyboard.

Spelling errors are a lot more visible than "I-before-E" violations. Because of this, we take the author of the spelling error much less seriously than the author of the more nuanced errors.

Another english folly: "we take the author of the spelling error much less seriously..." Do we take the author of the spelling error much seriously? Or less seriously?
 
  • #45
Sorry! said:
Ok people keep saying this in this thread. How does society follow 'i before except after c'?

I am quite sure its so-c-i-e-ty. So according to the rule it should be spelt so-c-e-i-ty. Because I should not come before e since it is after


Another english folly: In Britian, it's "genious," but here it's "genius."
 
  • #47
leroyjenkens said:
I edited my post. I didn't think that they would most likely have a different spelling too.

The official IUPAC spelling is now Aluminium, unfortunately they also insist on spelling Sulpher as Sulfur.
 
  • #48
sportsstar469 said:
i think you mean this thread wouldn't exist if he DID know rhat,. if he DIDNt know that the thread would and DID exist, as seen in the op, where he incorrectly states that ''soceity'' does not meet the i before e rule!

He meant to spell the words incorrectly to show what they should be if they followed the "rules". Although he spelled foreigner correctly, which makes it a little confusing.

At least that's how I interpret it. Maybe he did mean to spell them both right. I don't know.
 
  • #49
mgb_phys said:
The official IUPAC spelling is now Aluminium, unfortunately they also insist on spelling Sulpher as Sulfur.

Here's something from wikipedia:
"The International Union of Pure and Applied Chemistry (IUPAC) adopted aluminium as the standard international name for the element in 1990, but three years later recognized aluminum as an acceptable variant. Hence their periodic table includes both.[53] IUPAC officially prefers the use of aluminium in its internal publications, although several IUPAC publications use the spelling aluminum"

So they prefer the British spelling, but accept and sometimes use the American spelling.
I say whichever one came first should be the official spelling.
 
  • #50
Tobias Funke said:
He meant to spell the words incorrectly to show what they should be if they followed the "rules". Although he spelled foreigner correctly, which makes it a little confusing.

At least that's how I interpret it. Maybe he did mean to spell them both right. I don't know.

That's what I took it as too, that he purposely spelt society incorrectly to show the use of the rediculous 'rule'. Society does not follow the rule sports, you are wrong, not the OP.

Either that or he just made a typo with spelling society... regardless it doesn't change the fact that the word does not follow i before e rule.
 
  • #51
Does anyone understand what this guy is saying? (he speaks English, haha)



Tink am in da picktzo..? Haha...
 
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  • #52
Interesting trivia note: The word "weird" derives from the germanic "wyrd", an interesting word that roughly translates to "fate" although is significantly more nuanced. Apparently, Shakespeare anglicized the word in Macbeth to describe the three witches (the weird sisters, although there was originally a funny looking accent mark in the word) and the word was then adopted into general english.
 
  • #53
Sorry! said:
Hahaha. That's SO weird, to me it's still 'men' in wo-men.

I wonder do you guys also pronounce 'cavalry and calvary' the same way?

What about mischievous this one to me sounds like 'mis-chiev-ous' I hear people say 'mis-cheev-eee-ous' ha.

It's interesting to see how other people pronounce words though :P

EDIT: I've been sitting here saying the word women and it sounds to me like I'm saying 'w-uh-mmm-en' (as in end) and when I say woman it's more like 'w-uh-mmm-an' (as in and). :-p I looked it up in the dictionary and it says \ˈwi-mən\


Look, this guy is Canadian, too, he can teach you. :biggrin:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/B4MIrKXaD84&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/B4MIrKXaD84&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>​
 
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  • #54
Equate said:
Look, this guy is Canadian, too, he can teach you. :biggrin:

Hahaha, he sounds like at the end of women he is saying WEHM-EN not WIMIN... they sound different.. like in vs end...

look at the word VERMIN the end of this word sounds nothing like the end of women. Right?
 
  • #55
Someone (James Nicoll) said - English doesn't just borrow words from other languages, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.

If you are 'borrowing' from a language that's easy to pronounce with obvious spelling like Dutch you can keep the pronunciation the same but make up a new spelling
But if the word comes from a language that's hard to pronounce - like French then keep the spelling but pronounce it in English. if you feel bad you can use the original plural instead of an English one.
If you take a word from a language with lots of cool complicated grammar (like latin) then rather than waste it - it's worth using the foreign grammar for the rest of the sentence as well, even if you don't need to.
 
  • #56
mgb_phys said:
But if the word comes from a language that's hard to pronounce - like French then keep the spelling but pronounce it in English.

http://www.answers.com/topic/le-cordon-bleu"
floet1.gif
 
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  • #57
lisab said:
Yes :smile:! In the word "women" the "men" is pronounced "min," but the word "men" is pronounced "men."

It's not logical; it's English. Which, I presume, is why the OP hates it.

I pronounce it wi-men.

"Wimmin" makes me think of redneck English (sorry lisa) and a joke my grandparents had on their bar. It was a plaque thing shaped like a tombstone and read:
Ma loved pa.
Pa loved wimmin.
Ma caught pa with two in swimmin.
Here lies pa.
 
  • #58
Moonbear said:
I pronounce it wi-men.

"Wimmin" makes me think of redneck English (sorry lisa) and a joke my grandparents had on their bar. It was a plaque thing shaped like a tombstone and read:
Ma loved pa.
Pa loved wimmin.
Ma caught pa with two in swimmin.
Here lies pa.

Sounds right to me...women does rhyme with swimmin'!

Actually dictionary.com http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Women" . And yes, it does sound a bit redneck :smile:.
 
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  • #59
"read" and "read" always bugged me.
(present tense / past tense)
 
  • #60
Equate said:
Look, this guy is Canadian, too, he can teach you. :biggrin:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/B4MIrKXaD84&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/B4MIrKXaD84&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>​

What on Earth is that about?!

Anyhow, yes, the guy bringing us the letter W and the number 4 today does, in fact, know that "woman" and "women" are pronounced entirely differently.

Sorry! you're Cannunkian, yes? If so, which part do you come from?
 
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