Why is suicide such a tragic and heartbreaking reality?

[DiracPool]

I've been getting into Boston recently come the early spring, and having to (appreciatingly) hear Brad Delp's voice on every song I get saddened by the fact that I knowingly know that he locked himself in his bathroom with two BBQ grills and set the propane or whatever carbon monoxide concoction thereof a-mist in order to kill himself. He stuffed the borders of the doors with towels so the CO couldn't escape so we know it was a suicide. He left his poor wife a widow just weeks after their marriage. How tragic can this get? I do think about this from time to time and I'm sure you probably don't even know what I'm talking about. And that's the problemo.



Let's look at Robin Williams, he strapped himself to the back of a door and hung himself. I cry over these tragedies.. Chuck Negron would have been dead but he hung himself from a leaky hot water pipe that collapsed. Good for him.

What can we do to prevent future suicides?

 

[Sophia]

I've been getting into Boston recently come the early spring, and having to (appreciatingly) hear Brad Delp's voice on every song I get saddened by the fact that I knowingly know that he locked himself in his bathroom with two BBQ grills and set the propane or whatever carbon monoxide concoction thereof a-mist in order to kill himself. He stuffed the borders of the doors with towels so the CO couldn't escape so we know it was a suicide. He left his poor wife a widow just weeks after their marriage. How tragic can this get? I do think about this from time to time and I'm sure you probably don't even know what I'm talking about. And that's the problemo.



Let's look at Robin Williams, he strapped himself to the back of a door and hung himself. I cry over these tragedies.. Chuck Negron would have been dead but he hung himself from a leaky hot water pipe that collapsed. Good for him.

What can we do to prevent future suicides?

Probably listen to everyone and observe the warning signs like bad mood (though many learn to take simile and laughter while they suffer inside), loss of interests and hobbies, lack of sleep or too much sleep, bad hygiene...
Never say :don't be so sad or I don't understand why you feel this way or Cheer up! These are the worst things you can say to a person suffering from depression or anxiety.
It is also my case. I've got issues and when I talked about them to someone and they would say things like these I put that person into category "never talk to this person about my feelings again". From than on, I would fake good mood and smile with them, while suffering inside... I guess this is the case why suicide may come as a surprise in many cases.
The most important thing that family and friends can do is to listen, let that person talk, don't judge their feelings. Don't try to persuade them that things aren't so bad. It will make things MUCH worse and the person will start to feel guilty and misunderstood in addition to being sad. Say things like I understand you are sad , it must be difficult for you. And encourage them to get professional help and medication.

 

[neymaster]

suicide has organic basis:
http://www.nature.com/news/brain-study-seeks-roots-of-suicide-1.18870

 

[DiracPool]

"Life is a short warm moment, death is long cold rest..."

-Pink Floyd

 

[Psinter]

What can we do to prevent future suicides?

I don't know . I know nothing of support. I just sit and listen when someone is sad. Although I've never encountered someone wanting to do it. I just listen or simply sit in silence, more or less like in here:

http://imgur.com/a/k5c5T

 

[Choppy]

What can we do to prevent future suicides?

I did some crisis intervention training years ago when I was in graduate school and one of the things I remember about suicide was that in the lead up to it what you often have is a person who is in so much pain that the only way that person can see to stop it is to end his or her life. Frequently this person is suffering in ways that are unseen to the outside world, and in many cases the person will go to great lengths to cover it up. On top of whatever root cause(s) that person is dealing with there are also issues with stigma and social pressures that play a big role in keeping that person for reaching out for help. Like mental illness, many people feel as if entertaining suicidal thoughts stems from a weakness of character. Additional struggles with drug and/or alcohol addition don't help matters much.

So it would seem that ways to address this would include:

• improved social awareness
• training in recognition of suicidal risk factors for certain professionals including teachers, front line medical workers, social workers, police, etc.
• providing safe environments for people to disclose such thoughts without judgement

 

[krater]

The thing that hurts the most about suicide is not being able to confront the person and ask, "WHY?"

Too often there are few prior indications. And if someone is really motivated to do it, especially if nobody suspects in advance, it's probably going to happen. Substances legal or otherwise can greatly compound a mental issue and abruptly put a person over the edge.

Suicide is also in my opinion the paramount of selfish acts. Whether it's intended or not the message that is sent through suicide is "f**k you all." You can't even tell the person how angry you are about it; they're gone and you are left here with the pain they didn't want to deal with.

I don't really have a good answer either. I've coped with it in my own head and only know the way I figured it out was to never stop believing that it's better to be alive. Make sure you're always reminding everyone around you of that.

 

[DiracPool]

Well, we just lost another one to an apparent suicide, Keith Emerson of Emerson, Lake, and Palmer fame:

http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/wireStory/keith-emerson-emerson-lake-palmer-dies-71-37587541

RIP Keith

I'm not an expert in this area but what seems curious to me is the later age that many of these recent suicides seem to be happening. Keith was 71, Brad was 56, Robin was 63. Throw in Hunter S. Thomson in there too as well as probably many others. I always thought that if you made it past adolescence, you were pretty much homefree. Perhaps the later-life grief in celebrities comes simply from that loss of fame, love of adulation that probably drove them to become celebrities in the first place. IDK. But 60-ish seems a weird age to commit suicide if you don't have some sort of intractable disease condition. I'd think that if you've made it that far, what you're mostly concerned about is squeaking out what few years of health you have left. It would seem as if you would have by then developed strong techniques to deal with psychological depression.

Edit: I did a little more reading, and here may some insight into my own question, at least regarding Hunter Thomson:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunter_S._Thompson

"Thompson's inner circle told the press that he had been depressed, and always found February a "gloomy" month, with football season over and the harsh Colorado winter weather. He was also upset over his advancing age and chronic medical problems, including a hip replacement; he would frequently mutter "This kid is getting old." Rolling Stonepublished what Doug Brinkley described as a suicide note written by Thompson to his wife, titled "Football Season Is Over". It read:

"No More Games. No More Bombs. No More Walking. No More Fun. No More Swimming. 67. That is 17 years past 50. 17 more than I needed or wanted. Boring. I am always bitchy. No Fun — for anybody. 67. You are getting Greedy. Act your (old) age. Relax — This won't hurt."[48]
Thompson's collaborator and friend Ralph Steadman wrote:

"... He told me 25 years ago that he would feel real trapped if he didn't know that he could commit suicide at any moment. I don't know if that is brave or stupid or what, but it was inevitable."

 

[Enigman]

This reminded me of this article:
Daughters of Australian scientists who took their own lives reflect on their parents' plan

 

[CrazyNinja]

I am 18 and I guess too young to talk about this but I do know one thing. Whenever I feel sad and wonder about why it is that I even exist, I don't think of myself. I think of people near me. I think of my family, my friends and my loved ones.
I think of what I mean to them. Most of the times we just don't know what we mean to people. I believe it is here that the problem lies.
I have always believed that deep down, all a human being desires is love. He /She wants someone who loves them.
So when one is sad, one should think of people one loves and people who love one back.
The simplest way to prevent suicides would be to tell the people you love that you care. That there is someone they can rely upon. That there is a larger cause to life.
Social forums like this one could help a lot too. I mean, just open a random General Discussion thread and see if you don't end up laughing. Most of the time Psinter or Drakkith or Phinds end up making a hilarious joke which brightens the day up.

 

[Sophia]

I am 18 and I guess too young to talk about this but I do know one thing. Whenever I feel sad and wonder about why it is that I even exist, I don't think of myself. I think of people near me. I think of my family, my friends and my loved ones.
I think of what I mean to them. Most of the times we just don't know what we mean to people. I believe it is here that the problem lies.
I have always believed that deep down, all a human being desires is love. He /She wants someone who loves them.
So when one is sad, one should think of people one loves and people who love one back.
The simplest way to prevent suicides would be to tell the people you love that you care. That there is someone they can rely upon. That there is a larger cause to life.
Social forums like this one could help a lot too. I mean, just open a random General Discussion thread and see if you don't end up laughing. Most of the time Psinter or Drakkith or Phinds end up making a hilarious joke which brightens the day up.

This is all very nice and I see that it could help a healthy person. So far it is helping me (I haven't thought about suicide for some time now). It's just that if someone has a chemical imbalance in their brain, these things will not help. It's the same as telling someone with broken leg to look at other people running and try to do the same.
There are times when joke can help and there are other times when joke and watching people have fun can increase the pain.

 

[Psinter]

Most of the time Psinter or Drakkith or Phinds end up making a hilarious joke which brightens the day up.

Me?

When she doesn't want to smile, but you keep making faces and funny stuff until she finally smiles:

The one with the camera probably was: "Eh, eh, eh? Ahahahahaha."

 

[CrazyNinja]

So far it is helping me

Helping you in what Sophia?

Psinter you ain't like that man. Your jokes are nice. Even the creepy forest didn't sound too creepy coming from your tongue (or keyboard).

 

[Sophia]

Helping you in what Sophia?

Just saying that currently I am in a much better state than I used to be. Internet and little jokes and fun comments can improve my mood.
A year or two ago things like these didn't help much.

 

[einswine]

I, like a few others I know, all over 70, hope to end our lives on our own terms. I cared for my mother for the nine years she lived after a devastating stroke. My mother-in-law lived to 102 and the last four years were excruciatingly difficult for her, but she did quite well till 97. Difficult calculation while living is still pleasant.

"Suicide is also in my opinion the paramount of selfish acts. Whether it's intended or not the message that is sent through suicide is "f**k you all.""
Yes, generally "suicide is a selfish act". And *to hell with you all" may, on rare occasion, be part of the motivation. But more often a person is just overwhelmed by pain, either physiological or psychological. To take it as a personal affront is not helpful to one's self or particularly rational.

 

[neymaster]

as I gave the link in my previous reply,
modern neuropsychiatric point of view:
depression and tendency to suicide are organic and sometimes genetic brain disorders.
I have bipolar disorder.
my depression periods are sometimes treatment resistant but I have no tendency to suicide.

 

[Psinter]

hope to end our lives on our own terms.

I was going to make a joke about suicide, copyrights and terms of service, but I'll leave it for another occasion, another place, and another audience. Edit: Which at the same time reminds me of someone commenting once something along these lines:

I made a dark humor joke once and got downvoted to hell. I'm not a bad person. :(

Yes, generally "suicide is a selfish act". And *to hell with you all" may, on rare occasion, be part of the motivation. But more often a person is just overwhelmed by pain, either physiological or psychological. To take it as a personal affront is not helpful to one's self or particularly rational.

I agree, therefore I liked your post.

 

[Sarah69]

Doesn't seem to be proven so far? Scary thought though.

 

[krater]

And *to hell with you all" may, on rare occasion, be part of the motivation. But more often a person is just overwhelmed by pain

Yes and when they choose to end their own life they shed all that pain to everyone they care about. They get the one way ticket out. Suicide causes permanent damage to more people than the direct victim. The act of suicide conveys a hurtful message irrespective of whatever the one who carries it out wants to say. Sometimes it can even be part of the intent. It's nothing glorious. It just spreads the misery around.

I just don't believe you get the choice in that part. It's fine to excercise a right and demonstrate control over your own life and make it your own choice but if there's anyone in the world who cares about you I can promise they prefer to have you around. Severe pain and suffering aside, it's a choice you make to deprive others of your presence so that your own experience might overall be less unpleasant. It's a selfish decision plain and simple.

 

[f95toli]

Yes and when they choose to end their own life they shed all that pain to everyone they care about. They get the one way ticket out. Suicide causes permanent damage to more people than the direct victim. The act of suicide conveys a hurtful message irrespective of whatever the one who carries it out wants to say. Sometimes it can even be part of the intent. It's nothing glorious. It just spreads the misery around.

That is too simplistic. It might be true in many cases, but in some cases -including some of the ones mentioned above- the decision has to be up to the individual. The obvious example would be someone who is already terminally ill, is in a lot of pain or knows that he/she will be suffering from severe dementia in the near future. In these cases no one else has a right to say whether or not this is the right cause of action or not. Ultimately, it has to do with quality of life.

That said, one would hope that everyone involved is aware of this and that it has been discussed openly so that it does not come as a complete shock (that is certainly the case in my family).

 

[gjonesy]

What can we do to prevent future suicides?

Complicated answer to a complicated problem. For someone who is completely serious and determined about leaving this world there is absolutely nothing that can be done. These are the ones that don't talk about it, they don't tell anyone what's on their mind. They just do it. For those that are on the fence, they usually discus their feelings, they show outward signs of inner pain. They give you clues. For those who are seeking recognition and acknowledgment they usually come right out and tell you. Because they are hoping someone cares enough to intervene the "cry for help" type. For the first type there is no solution other then recognition of vague signs, (giving away of property, contacting old friends and saying goodbye, sad and depressed, preferring isolation instead of social interaction. ect) then observation and acknowledgment that they may be having a problem, and hopefully they will give a solid clue as to their intentions. But even then if they have a made up mind there is little that can be done.I always tell anyone who even talks casually about suicide 'its a permanent solution to temporary problems, eventually all storms pass"

 

[krater]

That is too simplistic. It might be true in many cases, but in some cases -including some of the ones mentioned above- the decision has to be up to the individual.

I'm a firm believer in the decision resting with the individual. Really I have a lot of problems with most of the western legal doctrines regarding suicide as I view it as law depriving one of a freedom. And since there's no way to avoid the end of life anyway its a rationalization.

It's not too simplistic. It's always a component. When someone watches another fight some malady or cling to life until the bitter end, it can be a painful and traumatic thing to endure in itself. In the end it's the disease that takes the loved one. When someone decides they don't want to go that route, or even take the chance of it in some cases, that can spare the survivors and the victim alike the suffering of a painful decline. It might be a worthwhile trade off. It's still a trade off.

This is not a social trend I see a problem with. Suicide for other reasons is a different story. I think that's the main focus of this thread, it's not so much the freedoms of suicide as the motivations of those who are not terminally ill or otherwise and yet still see death as the only way out of what they view as a bad situation.

 

[einswine]

We are also considering the case of someone who seemingly kills them selves out of the blue. Here people on the outside are completely unaware of the titanic struggles going on within the individual nor have they any inkling of the pain the person is in. So it is easier to condemn them than someone who is seen struggling to swim to shore but who finally loses that struggle to the currents. For outsiders both are sad, and both are tragic to their loved ones. The suicide of course leaves searing questions, and when we are deeply wounded we are want to find blame. But this kind of anger/hurt is probably best handled by introspection done with the help of a carefully chosen professional.

 

[krater]

Actually einswine this is primarily what we're considering here. And this is why. In the case of, say, an elderly family member deciding they want to die with dignity through an arranged suicide, this is something that is normally brought before the family, discussed, everybody involved gets to come to terms with it prior, not just the person considering suicide. It's not the same thing as someone who is buried under crushing pain inside and ultimately relents through taking their own life.

Your arguements dilutes the issue of this latter form of suicide which is really only synonymous to what you're addressing in name and legal description. It's not productive in a discussion of suicide as a social problem. The legal subject of living will and elderly health and care is a loosely related but separate issue.

 

[gjonesy]

In the case of, say, an elderly family member deciding they want to die with dignity through an arranged suicide, this is something that is normally brought before the family, discussed, everybody involved gets to come to terms with it prior,

Well in some cases I wouldn't exactly call that a "suicide". Many hospitals will aid a dying adult with the option of a legal document called a (DNR) that's what happened to my oldest brother. He was on a ventilator his kidneys were failing and he had blood poisoning from gangrene in his right leg. He made his wishes known to only one person (I'm not sure of its validity) but she had power of attorney. According to her he didn't want to be kept alive on a machine. I think everyone can say that with conviction and toughness till that moment comes. His eyes told me a different story. The physician told us he had one chance to live and that was amputation of the leg and dialysis they gave that option a 50/50 chance if they could get the infection under control. However my niece and myself were the only 2 to want to try and treat him. Everyone else opted for the removal of the breathing tube and "comfort medication" in the form of a massive dose of morphine. The breathing tube came out, the morphine went in and within 30 minutes his heart stopped. The hospital assisted in 2 ways, They removed life saving equipment and gave him a medication that can slow your breathing and O2 saturation. I watched his blood pressure drop to 50/40 seconds after the injections.

That's more like euthanasia then it is anything else.

And just so you know he was conscious until his heart stopped. He couldn't speak but could mouth words. and he really didn't appear to understand what was happening at the time. I truly don't think he knew what was going on when they took out the breathing tube. He even appeared somewhat confused by people telling him goodbye and then staying in the room.

 

[einswine]

...
Your arguements dilutes the issue of this latter form of suicide which is really only synonymous to what you're addressing in name and legal description. It's not productive in a discussion of suicide as a social problem. ...

You are correct. And I apologize. No disrespect was intended.

 

[Drakkith]

Suicide is also in my opinion the paramount of selfish acts. Whether it's intended or not the message that is sent through suicide is "f**k you all." You can't even tell the person how angry you are about it; they're gone and you are left here with the pain they didn't want to deal with.

Personally I see the message as, "I can't handle this anymore".

 

[gjonesy]

Personally I see the message as, "I can't handle this anymore".

That is the message with some, I have seen it in some cases as a "let fate decide" message with others especially with overdose. There was one case in my neighborhood actually, and I knew the guy. He hung himself from a rope swing in his back yard. The swing was positioned inside of a dog lot with a dog that only the family could control (full blooded pit bull). He climbed on the dog house made a slip not in the rope took a pocket knife out of his pocket according to a witness he said if I can cut the rope I live if not I'm gone, he jumped off the dog house and tried to cut the rope. The rope was to thick and was a plastic ski rope. They left him hanging in the tree till the crime scene investigation was completed which seemed to take forever. They actually left part of the rope hanging in the tree.

There are many reasons and many messages...some understandable...others are puzzling (those who seem to have everything to live for) some times its an accident and they never intended to complete the act and they always thought someone would save them. The most bizarre suicides are out of the blue for no reason what so ever. There is a psychological theory that some are high functioning schizophrenics and that a malfunction of the mind drove them to do it. The main cause of most suicides in physically healthy people is simple depression coupled with bad circumstances. Some suicides aren't suicides at all, they are made to look like suicides, one of the easiest ways to get away with murder is to have a plausible suicide or accidental death scenario. We can even know a person is guilty but if you can't prove it there is nothing you can do, if your suspect is your main witness.

 

[Sophia]

A friend who works for a pharmaceutical company did a research on a certain drug and she found out that a person tried to mildly overdose with it but drunk lots of coffee before taking the drug probably hoping that the caffeine would keep him alive. However, caffeine actually increases the effectiveness of the drug and the person died.

 

[krater]

Personally I see the message as, "I can't handle this anymore".

The point I am trying to make is about the message the act itself sends. It needs not be related to what if anything the victim was trying to state with the act.

When someone complains they can't take this heat, or this stress, how often do you see them drop over dead? One's perception of what they personally may be able to "handle" could be very different from reality. To commit suicide is to commit to the resignation that you don't desire to be helped out of this situation you are breaking under. You forego any chance that anyone will ever have to try to turn your view around. As long as you are alive this is a possibility, death is irrevocable and every single person knows this.

With regards to intent, if you could somehow convey a message from beyond that this is just the choice you wanted to make, that it wasn't intended to hurt anyone besides yourself, well, how much consolation do you thing that would really bring to your loved ones?

 

[einswine]

To commit suicide is to commit to the resignation that you don't desire to be helped out of this situation you are breaking under.

That would be true if the person was fully rational and able to actually see and objectively comprehend all sides of the issues tormenting them. People are not as rational as we as a society pretend, nor is free will nearly so absolute as we want to believe it is. In general such suicides as you are considering are issues of mental health not moral failings.

 

[Drakkith]

The point I am trying to make is about the message the act itself sends. It needs not be related to what if anything the victim was trying to state with the act.

I disagree with this.

When someone complains they can't take this heat, or this stress, how often do you see them drop over dead? One's perception of what they personally may be able to "handle" could be very different from reality. To commit suicide is to commit to the resignation that you don't desire to be helped out of this situation you are breaking under.

I strongly disagree with this. I can't imagine that most people who commit suicide have little to no desire to be helped. As I understand it, most people who resort to suicide do so because they haven't been able to get the help they want/need and don't think that they have any reasonable options left. And this ignores the very large portion of suicides committed by people who, quite literally, aren't in their right minds because of extreme stress, fear, depression, substance abuse, and a multitude of other reasons. From my reading, approximately 90% of all suicides are due to one or more of the reasons I just listed.

In addition, I know directly from a primary source that some people go through the act of attempting to commit suicide just so their cries for help will be heard. It is unfortunate that many of these attempted suicides become actual suicides because they aren't found soon enough or have been too effective in their suicide attempt.

When my father was about 16, he says he took an entire bottle of pills in a suicide attempt and then purposely laid down on the steps of the house just so his mother would find him. He could have gone to his room, where his mother would have left him in their for hours, if she'd even checked on him at all before a few days went by. He says that the entire act was a cry for help.

And you don't have to take this one case as the only evidence for this. This is well documented:

Most suicide attempts do not result in death. Many of these attempts are done in a way that makes rescue possible. These attempts are often a cry for help.
Source: https://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001554.htm

With regards to intent, if you could somehow convey a message from beyond that this is just the choice you wanted to make, that it wasn't intended to hurt anyone besides yourself, well, how much consolation do you thing that would really bring to your loved ones?

I expect that the amount of consolation it would bring runs the full spectrum from "none at all" to "greatly easing their pain and answering most of their questions", with the majority of cases lying somewhere in the middle.

That would be true if the person was fully rational and able to actually see and objectively comprehend all sides of the issues tormenting them. People are not as rational as we as a society pretend, nor is free will nearly so absolute as we want to believe it is. In general such suicides as you are considering are issues of mental health not moral failings.

Words alone cannot express the amount of agreement I have with this statement.

 

[Enigman]

I strongly disagree with this. I can't imagine that most people who commit suicide have little to no desire to be helped. As I understand it, most people who resort to suicide do so because they haven't been able to get the help they want/need and don't think that they have any reasonable options left.

I would argue that a major part of depression and suicidal ideation is that they have little to no desire to be helped. Speaking from personal and peer experience, in that condition you lose every ounce of your self-esteem and firmly believe that you are not worth helping and in even more extreme cases that the world will be a better place without you. Reversing this belief is often the key to helping someone suicidal, doing which is no mean feat. To put it more succinctly, depression lies.

 

[Amrator]

As others have stated, when you are at the point where you are having suicidal thoughts, you are usually too mentally unstable and/or psychologically exhausted to think rationally. This is why judging a person who is suicidal is the last thing you want to do.

 

[einswine]

I don't see a dichotomy here.

Most suicide attempts do not result in death. Many of these attempts are done in a way that makes rescue possible. These attempts are often a cry for help.

Often does not mean always. It would not surprise me greatly if both attitudes were common and often occurring in the same individual at the same time.

 

[Derek Francis]

I never want to invalidate the feelings of people who feel suicidal. They're suicidal for a reason, whether it's due to mental illness, bad life circumstances or a lack of a supportive network of family and friends.

I think it's more important to work on fixing the things that make people feel suicidal rather than to just focus on the suicide part.

 

[Drakkith]

Often does not mean always. It would not surprise me greatly if both attitudes were common and often occurring in the same individual at the same time.

Agreed.

 

[micromass]

I always tell anyone who even talks casually about suicide 'its a permanent solution to temporary problems, eventually all storms pass"

You mean well, but these kind of sentences actually do more harm than good. First of all, it's not true. And even if it were true, the person committing suicide does not recognize the truth of this sentence at all. Second, by somebody saying sentences like this, they have basically stopped the conversation. This kind of thing might be true in your eyes and you might be very comfortable in its truth. The person committing suicide does not care about platitutes that he thinks are mostly false anyway. They are interested in having a genuine conversation about their feelings without anybody judging them or their decisions.

You have to recognize that people committing suicide have a very narrow tunnel vision. They do not think the same way you and I do. Rational arguments such as "All things pass" or "life will get better" or whatever are being shot down immediately by the person's depression. They simply do not work. If anything, they do more harm than good because the conversation has been ended.

Try to listen to the person. Without judging. Try to feel their pain. Try to see where they are coming from. Don't judge. Don't propose things the person should do that sound rational to you, they will shoot it down and you will reach a point where you have no suggestions left and you feel completely out of ideas. This is exactly how they feel.

 

[micromass]

Yes and when they choose to end their own life they shed all that pain to everyone they care about. They get the one way ticket out. Suicide causes permanent damage to more people than the direct victim. The act of suicide conveys a hurtful message irrespective of whatever the one who carries it out wants to say. Sometimes it can even be part of the intent. It's nothing glorious. It just spreads the misery around.

I just don't believe you get the choice in that part. It's fine to excercise a right and demonstrate control over your own life and make it your own choice but if there's anyone in the world who cares about you I can promise they prefer to have you around. Severe pain and suffering aside, it's a choice you make to deprive others of your presence so that your own experience might overall be less unpleasant. It's a selfish decision plain and simple.

I'm sorry but you are the one who is selfish. You are the one who rather wants people you love to live on in unbelievable pain and agony because you rather want to have them around.

I understand fully that you severely miss a suicide victim. Very understandable. But once you realize the truth, you should be happy that their pain and agony are finally over.

 

[gjonesy]

You mean well, but these kind of sentences actually do more harm than good. First of all, it's not true. And even if it were true, the person committing suicide does not recognize the truth of this sentence at all. Second, by somebody saying sentences like this, they have basically stopped the conversation.

Well its an expression we use when talking to people about suicide, not people contemplating the act.

And its absolutely a true statement. Especially when talking to people about suicide. Its a permanent act if its completed, there is no do overs.

And if a person isn't terminally ill or has a life threatening injury that can't be treated. Then everything else is workable in a different way.

All that being said, its been my experience and training that people who talk about killing themselves to anyone are screaming HELP ME NOW. The biggest mistake a person can make when dealing with a suicidal person is thinking they know what that person is going through. You do not. All you can do it offer a ear and help. In some instances in the case of those incarcerated you can some what negate their ability to complete the act. With a person walking free...if the situation is bad enough you can talk them into voluntary commitment. Or you can if (you can prove they are a danger to themselves or others) have them commited involuntarily.

If someone is determined to end their life for whatever reason, usually you won't know anything about it until someone finds a body.

 

[micromass]

And if a person isn't terminally ill or has a life threatening injury that can't be treated. Then everything else is workable in a different way.

That seems like a very convenient lie that people like to tell themselves. The truth is much more complex. For some people, the mental pain does not get cured. For some people, it does not get better.

If someone is determined to end their life for whatever reason, usually you won't know anything about it until someone finds a body.

That is provably false. Research has actually shown most people do give signs of what they are about to do. Most people do ask for help in one way or another. Problem is that the signs are often not recognized, and the help is not adequate.

http://www.mentalhealthamerica.net/suicide

Remember: Eight out of ten people considering suicide give some sign of their intentions. People who talk about suicide, threaten suicide, or call suicide crisis centers are 30 times more likely than average to kill themselves.

 

[gjonesy]

That is provably false. Research has actually shown most people do give signs of what they are about to do. Most people do ask for help in one way or another. Problem is that the signs are often not recognized, and the help is not adequate.

I'll have to see an exceptible reference for that. Absolutely nothing I've said contradicts anything in your reference. Being In law enforcement for the past 15 years this i have seen a lot. Suicide is an unfortunate part of that, some people give no warning. They just do it. Others give signs that are so suttle to the untrained. They would go completely unnoticed. We have strict legal protocol that we go by, and if you can spot EVERY SUICIDE before it happens. I know some people that would love to hire you.

If you'd like to debate the semantics of what said or what you consider a (warning sign) in your superior method for perventing them then start another thread.

 

[gjonesy]

These are quotes from the study you posted.

• The actual ratio of attempts to completed suicides is probably at least 10 to 1

For every 10 attempts there is
"probably" 1 suicide.

Why Do People Attempt Suicide?
A suicide attempt is a clear indication that something is gravely wrong in a person’s life. No matter the race or age of the person; how rich or poor they are, it is true that most people who die by suicide have a mental or emotional disorder. The most common underlying disorder is depression, 30% to 70% of suicide victims suffer from major depression or bipolar (manic-depressive) disorder.

This study is based totally on data from people who have made previous attempts...,not all suicidal individuals are depressed or bipolar.

• 30,000 Americans die by suicide each year; an additional 500,000 Americans attempt suicide annually

So out of 500,000 ATTEMPTS 6% actually commit suicide. It gives no quantifiable data for reason or any "signs" for that 6% or that they made any previous attempts at completing the act. That is hardly any provabale data.

The only coralation is that there were previous attempts at suicide.
And for every attempt that is recognized and treated how many recovered and how many finally completed the act. Again there arent any numbers on that.

Ive never interveiw a suicide victim and neither has anyone else. So how can you make a claim that people always give clear signs.

Some first suicide attemps are successful even if that wasnt the intention.

Where is the study on the odd occasion of suicides with no witnesses or signs, suicide by cop or other missing numbers. The numbers qouted in the study are based as far as i can see on people who are (contemplating/thinking) about it. Or those who have had passed unsuccessfully attempts.

Who is to say that they weren't just (attempting without the intent of completing) and accidentally succeeded.

This study and the data in question counts for the portion of those who clearly showed signs of suicide. There is no quantifiable data in that study about people that show no signs or commit suicide unintentionally.

 

[krater]

I see no problem with holding an opinion that by and large anyone who sucessfully carries out suicide, in response to some problem they may have had or been perceived to have had, MADE THE WRONG DECISION. I see no problem in holding the opinion that they MADE A BAD DECISION.

Take this as someone projecting their morality on the situation if you like. Society may understand why for example a jealous boyfriend can come to the point of acting violently. It is not hard to see how people can become irrational with such emotions. Does it follow to argue from a point of rationalizing some such violent act on the grounds that a person simply isn't expected to make sound decisions in that state? I really can't understand where this sentiment seems to be coming from. Possibly I misinterpret the other side of the discussion. Is it really that unpalatable for some of you to consider a dogmatic concept of the complete and total non-viability of suicide as a useful solution to the overwhelming majority of life's crises?

I'm not very interested in statistics which deal in those who may have "considered" suicide. Those sort of thoughts aren't in themselves unnatural or unusual and I think it's most harmful when they are completely internalized because of taboo ect. It's a big, big stretch from mere contemplation to putting oneself in a position to commit. There are people who craft artful notes and then fail with a halfassed attempt, and there are people who skip right to the part where they put a rifle in their mouth.

 

[gjonesy]

There are people who craft artful notes and then fail with a halfassed attempt, and there are people who skip right to the part where they put a rifle in their mouth.

Yes there are some that do. A famous lawyer, the prosecutor in the Blanch Taylor Moore case, simply walked out into traffic on a busy interstate highway.

Some people simply decide they are done with life.

 

[krater]

Some people simply decide they are done with life.

And there is almost no hope of helping a person unless they can be made to care about helping themselves. A suicidal person who holds their own life in no value may have no other resort but to look for some hope in the value others might put in their lives. Without some other incentive (religious social you name it) suicide is always the selfish and easy way out.

 

[Evo]

Without some other incentive (religious social you name it) suicide is always the selfish and easy way out.

You can't say that and you don't know that. We here know people, great people, that have committed suicide and I'll thank you to keep your views to yourself, you have no way of knowing what every person that decides to end their life thinks or goes through.

I think it's time to end this thread.