Will BP's Top Kill Procedure Stop the Gulf Oil Spill?

[xxChrisxx]

This was nothing but simple greed overwhelming common sense. The only lesson to be learned is that industry is irresponsible, dangerous, reckless, and not to be trusted. But what is most disheartening is to see that some people don't get it. It makes me sick to see people constantly making excuses when this was entirely preventable. In Norway, they require that a relief well be drilled in parallel with the primary well. That way, they don't have to wait three months before stopping a leak in a situation like this. Why should we have to pass legislation for BP, or any oil company, to use common sense? There is only one answer: They can't be trusted.

Oh of course, its the same with the banks. You simply cannot trust an industry that is that large to regulate themselves. As greed being in the human nature they will chose max profit over max safety.

EDIT: you mentioned banks in the second paragraph ;)

 

[Geigerclick]

It seems that BP stopped their Top Kill for 16 HOURS. There is very little here that is what it seems, coming from BP, or from our government. The bottom line is that this is a disaster for which there was no plan. Hurricanes are coming, with the first named storm brewing near Guatemala. I can't foresee a solution that can be enacted in time to stop hurricanes churning the water, and driving it inland. I would not be shocked, given the timing of the leak based on mating and migration in the Gulf region, that this is going to make sea-birds covered in crude in Alaska seem like a fond memory.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Chad Meyers, on CNN, definitively reports that they have already tried at least "one junk shot". So in spite of what BP says, in some fashion, we have already moved beyond top kill.

No doubt they are throwing everything they have at it.

Updates as I'm posting:

Wolf Blitzer is now reporting specific allegations that BP has manipulated the information in order to protect their stock price.

Robert Dudley, managing director of BP, still says things are proceding well. He also admits that they have tried junk shots.

 

[magpies]

I'm thinking about starting to drink a small amount of oil every week/day so I can build up an immunity to it so I can keep on eating fish without having to worry :)

 

[Geigerclick]

Chad Meyers, on CNN, definitively reports that they have already tried at least "one junk shot". So in spite of what BP says, in some fashion, we have already moved beyond top kill.

No doubt they are throwing everything they have at it.

Updates as I'm posting:

Wolf Blitzer is now reporting specific allegations that BP has manipulated the information in order to protect their stock price.

Robert Dudley, managing director of BP, still says things are proceding well. He also admits that they have tried junk shots.

Why do we expect different behavior from BP or any company? They are in the business of seeing their stock survive, and with this misinformation they have allowed it to be locked in for memorial day weekend. I don't blame snakes for eating cute little mice, but as snake wranglers our government is corrupt and inept. As WE are the people who have created this government by voting, or not, and how we live, it comes back to living a lifestyle that is incompatible with long-term survival.

Wasn't it clear by day 20 or so that BP had no clue how to stop this leak, short of the Russian method? If we allow snakes to play with mice, we should not be shocked when each time we come back, there are fatter snakes and fewer mice.

 

[Geigerclick]

I'm thinking about starting to drink a small amount of oil every week/day so I can build up an immunity to it so I can keep on eating fish without having to worry :)

Crude Oil Hormesis, let us know how that study goes. =)

 

[Ivan Seeking]

According to Dudley, it will be another 48 hours before we know.

The next step would be to cut off the riser pipe, thus increasing the flow, and then put another containment dome over the pipe.

 

[Geigerclick]

According to Dudley, it will be another 48 hours before we know.

How convenient for the stock prices!

 

[mheslep]

This was nothing but simple greed overwhelming common sense. The only lesson to be learned is that industry is irresponsible, dangerous, reckless, and not to be trusted. But what is most disheartening is to see that some people don't get it. It makes me sick to see people constantly making excuses when this was entirely preventable. In Norway, they require that a relief well be drilled in parallel with the primary well. That way, they don't have to wait three months before stopping a leak in a situation like this. Why should we have to pass legislation for BP, or any oil company, to use common sense? There is only one answer: They can't be trusted.

...

I agree! Whoops, there's a typo. Allow me:

The only lesson to be learned is that [STRIKE]industry[/STRIKE] government is irresponsible, dangerous, reckless, and not to be trusted[...]

 

[magpies]

I agree! Whoops, there's a typo. Allow me:

You mean... The only lesson to be learned is that industry and government is irresponsible, dangerous, reckless, and not to be trusted[...]

 

[mheslep]

That's a good point. That's still the largest, but it's not a comparable spill to DWH.

Why not?

 

[mheslep]

You mean... The only lesson to be learned is that industry and government is irresponsible, dangerous, reckless, and not to be trusted[...]

Yes, as it happens I believe government and industry need watching; my post was for balance here.

Edit: If we accept that more government micromanagement might only lead to more MMS type foibles, I suggest a free market solution: require huge, colossal insurance policies on these rigs that cover much more than the cost of the rig but include all the externalities - the worst case scenarios - so in order to get a policy the insurance companies would require reps on the rigs signing off on every step: either comply or lose your policy and the rig is shut down, in the same way that we all are prevented from driving without insurance. Companies that pile up bad safety records get rejected, and thus run out of the business (at least deep offshore). Insurance companies have huge incentives to prevent the over-cosiness we've seen with MMS, in fact the relationship is frequently adversarial, as it should be.

 

[magpies]

Because history never repeats it's self.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Ed Overton, of La. State, professor emeritus of environmental sciences, just confirmed the claim that 90% of the life in the Gulf comes from the Louisiana wetlands.

 

[Borek]

we elected the officials who were willing to drill at 5000' without a meaningful plan A to recover from catastrophic failure

I love it when people blame government and oil companies for their need to drill.

 

[magpies]

90% of the life comes from the Louisiana wetlands? How can that be?

 

[xxChrisxx]

Why not?

Depth and as Ivan said, the flow rate is much higher. The depth being the most critical.

I believe the original sentiment of this was that big oil leaks in the past were stopped, why isn't this one? Unless I misread, this threads been moving at a heck of a pace.

 

[magpies]

So... this one is flowing at a higher rate? Doesn't that mean more oil? They didn't fix that other one for 10 months it says and this one might not get fixed for 2? That's by bp's guess at when a relief well will be done right? So what if this one takes 10 months also? How do we know for sure the flow rate is higher again? Just checking facts.

Also I was wondering does anyone know how the cement they use works? Like how does it harden exactly?

 

[xxChrisxx]

So... this one is flowing at a higher rate? Doesn't that mean more oil? They didn't fix that other one for 10 months it says and this one might not get fixed for 2? That's by bp's guess at when a relief well will be done right? So what if this one takes 10 months also? How do we know for sure the flow rate is higher again? Just checking facts.

It's all based on estiamtes. BP's own and other peoples inital estimates put the flow at 5000 barrels a day. There have been upper estiamtes at closer to 70000 barrels a day (I suspect it's somewhere inbetween). If you check the wiki page, there is a min and max tonnage based on flow estimates.

 

[mheslep]

Depth and as Ivan said, the flow rate is much higher. The depth being the most critical.

The point of the moment was the magnitude of the "environmental disaster" not the difficulty of capping the well. The flow rate of Ixtoc was about the http://www.incidentnews.gov/entry/508790" miles off Mexico, DHS 50+ miles off Louisiana, with 71,500 bbls of Ixtoc oil ending up on US beaches.

 

[magpies]

Ahh ok just incase someone was wondering I just checked a barrel of oil is 42 gallons.

 

[Geigerclick]

I love it when people blame government and oil companies for their need to drill.

I wasn't aware that there was a need to drill at that depth, in coastal waters. The "foreign oil" argument falls flat when this kind of disaster does more harm than terrorists or hostile governments could hope to achieve. I also don't need the drilling to be done irresponsibly, and overseen by agencies too busy snorting crystal methamphetamine off the naked buttocks of a low-rent prostitute (MMS).

I need water too, it doesn't mean I want our government or BP to piss down my throat.

 

[GeorginaS]

This was nothing but simple greed overwhelming common sense. The only lesson to be learned is that industry is irresponsible, dangerous, reckless, and not to be trusted. But what is most disheartening is to see that some people don't get it. It makes me sick to see people constantly making excuses when this was entirely preventable. In Norway, they require that a relief well be drilled in parallel with the primary well. That way, they don't have to wait three months before stopping a leak in a situation like this. Why should we have to pass legislation for BP, or any oil company, to use common sense? There is only one answer: They can't be trusted.

First the recklessness and greed of the financial markets nearly destroyed the world economy. Now BP may have killed the gulf, and still we hear rationalizations and excuses being made for them by the victims. This is insane!

This almost strikes me as something akin to Stockholm Syndrome.

Canada has the same relief well requirement for off-shore drilling. It is required or they can't get a drilling permit, period. As recently as couple of weeks prior to this Gulf catastrophe, the big oil companies were petitioning the National Energy Board to relax regulations

At issue is an industry bid to change a federal rule requiring energy companies to complete a "relief well" in the same season as they drill their working well. Some companies have been trying to persuade the board that a relief well, a safety measure, is no longer necessary because of technological advances in offshore drilling.

Read more: http://www.nationalpost.com/scripts/story.html?id=2981928#ixzz0pHw0LNil

If we're evil socialists, then I'm glad we are.

 

[magpies]

Your glad your an evil socialist? There is a better way...

 

[GeorginaS]

Maybe I should expand upon that a bit. It was a wry joke to say we're evil socialists. It's just a usual accusation made of Canada when trying to scare USian voters into doing something that profits businesses and not peoples.

But the relief well drilling is essential for the safety of these off-shore rigs -- BP is currently working at digging one right now next to the current disaster in the Gulf. But it'll take months to complete. It's the only sure-fire method to handle this type of catastrophe immediately. It's not required by US regulations.

And the lack of regulation on business and/or deregulation makes me angry beyond words because the damage that's happened in the Gulf right now didn't have to happen or be anywhere near the catastrophe it is. And when one giant hunk of the planet is severely damaged, it has consequences for all of us. And watching this whole thing unfold with so many people standing around hand-wringing has made me want to yell at someone. If I only knew who to yell at.

Anyway, all current standing off-shore rigs that don't have relief wells should be legislated into building one. Now. Not now, but right now. That's a huge part of this puzzle.

 

[magpies]

Well I may agree that a relief well will help but I highly doubt it is sure-fire. I don't really understand why you think deregulation caused this. Of course it can seem that way because deregulation makes it easyer for "evil" companys to do things. However it is not the deregulation that is the problem here it would be the evil company that is the problem. However combined with an "evil" government things get worse. The term evil is not great because they are infact not trying to be evil they are just simply to large. The way large governments work is one person makes a "rule" and 10,000,000,000 people below him have to live with it. It's rank and file chain of command in the worst way. The 1 person at the top has no idea how his "rule" will effect each and every of the billions of people. So really the main problem is that we have forgotten to work on our own efforts and instead let someone miles away make the choice for us.

 

[jreelawg]

The mineral management services has been too cozy. Environmental impact studies have been waved for reasons which make no sense. And, BP's permit stating their capability to handle a maximum spill rate of 300,000 barrels per day, turned out to not be very accurate. So in a way, even though some regulations were in place which could have helped, they weren't enforced.

Rather than requiring the oil company to have the capability to handle a worst case scene, they only require them to lie and say than can. I think there is a good deal of crime that was committed by both some of BP's people, and government officials. The only way to make sure it doesn't happen again is to enforce the law, and prove that committing fraud and negligence is punishable, otherwise there is not incentive to follow the rules.

I also don't understand though, how the EPA can order BP to stop using the toxic dispersants while BP ignores them and continues with little concern. Is this not punishable? Can't we arrest there Operating Officer for this offense?

Everyone is so concerned about drilling oil on our own shores, chanting drill baby drill, so we can have a foreign company come here, drill on our shores, not follow the rules, put our ecosystems at risk for their foreign profit, and then make a huge mess and act like they have more power on american soil than the american government. Ironically it's these same people who are "re-enacting the tea party". Dumping british tea bags in the ocean is one thing, but now we have the british dumping our oil into our ocean.

 

[magpies]

Ya I remember learning about how parts form equipment was ending up in the oil they pumped and they just said ahhh what harm could it do? And then kept on pumping.

 

[jreelawg]

One thing that bugs me, is when people say we shouldn't point fingers, just concentrate on the problem.

When I watched the three companies involved, testify before congress under oath, what I saw, was a whole lot being learned about what went wrong with the equiptment, what improvements/technology could make it safer, what the nature is of the current regulations, wether they were enforced, whether they were insufficient. I learned about the risks of drilling in the ocean, the nature and effectiveness the technology used in cleanup efforts.

And when I saw the news in the media, all they mostly reported on about the event, was that it was some kind of useless blame game.

It seams we are all supposed to stay dumb about the important details, and turn it into some kind of political game.

I am also annoyed increasingly by the masses of political commentators who like to boil basically every move of an administration to a move to get votes. They all have to say how Obama going to the gulf was an important political maneuver, he did this so that he can win votes. If anyone was president of the U.S., and worth a **** they would go down there to see what's going on first hand.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

The point of the moment was the magnitude of the "environmental disaster" not the difficulty of capping the well. The flow rate of Ixtoc was about the http://www.incidentnews.gov/entry/508790" miles off Mexico, DHS 50+ miles off Louisiana, with 71,500 bbls of Ixtoc oil ending up on US beaches.

1). In the case of the Ixtoc, only a week's worth of the leak actually hit land in the US. Most of it went north into the deep Atlantic.

2). In the case of this spill, almost all of the oil is heading towards land - the most sensitive wetlands in the gulf.

3). The Ixtoc was a heck of a lot farther from Texas - 600+ miles - than the Deep Horizon is from La - 50+ miles. The distance from Mexico is irrelevant for this comparison.

4). The flow was reduced over time to 10k barrels per day - less than the minimum estimated flow rate for this leak of 12,000 barrels per day. According to the current official estimate, we could be as high as 19,000 barrels per day. So again, what hit the US in 1979 was only about a week's worth of THIS spill, but over a range of 600 miles. This suggests that there may have been ten times as much time for the oil to weather and solidify, before hitting land.