Will Bush Hand Over the Presidency Peaceably in 2009?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the question of whether President Bush will peacefully hand over the presidency in 2009, amidst concerns about the U.S. potentially becoming a "police state." Participants explore various scenarios and implications of power transfer, touching on historical precedents and the role of military and police loyalty to constitutional principles.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Exploratory
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants express confidence that Bush will hand over the presidency without issue, citing historical norms of peaceful transitions.
  • Others suggest that while Bush may not currently have the power to resist leaving office, there are concerns about future attempts to eliminate presidential term limits.
  • A viewpoint is raised questioning the loyalty of military and police forces to Bush, suggesting they would uphold their oaths to the Constitution rather than support any attempt to retain power.
  • Some participants reference past discussions about the potential for postponing elections due to crises, drawing parallels to historical events and expressing skepticism about the integrity of the electoral process.
  • Concerns are voiced about the implications of a government that may not adhere to constitutional principles, with some participants suggesting that the military and police could eventually align with such a government.
  • One participant reflects on the broader implications of the discussion, questioning the logic of assuming a peaceful transfer of power indicates a lack of movement towards a police state.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach consensus; multiple competing views remain regarding the likelihood of a peaceful transition of power and the implications of current political trends. The discussion reflects a mix of optimism and skepticism about the future of U.S. democracy.

Contextual Notes

Some arguments depend on historical interpretations and assumptions about the current political climate, including the potential for crises that could affect the transfer of power. The discussion also touches on the historical context of presidential transitions and the implications of term limits.

Do you think Bush will hand over the Presidency peaceably in 2009?

  • Yes

    Votes: 31 77.5%
  • No

    Votes: 5 12.5%
  • Other

    Votes: 4 10.0%

  • Total voters
    40
  • #31
pattylou said:
(Your argument about democrats going through the same process would carry more weight if the evoting vendors were split in their political preferences. they're not. )


I was talking about candidates being selected by corporations before the primaries, which as known fact, as opposed to supposed voting fraud.
 
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  • #32
Well, certainly independents (without corporate sponsorship) run in every election cycle, and fraud of one sort or another is present in every cycle... so I expect we are roughly agreeing, that elections are sub-optimal and not representative of the will of the people.
 
  • #33
pattylou said:
Well, certainly independents (without corporate sponsorship) run in every election cycle, and fraud of one sort or another is present in every cycle... so I expect we are roughly agreeing, that elections are sub-optimal and not representative of the will of the people.


Yes, but my point is that Democrats are just as corporate selected as Republicans--its just a different set of corporations.
 
  • #34
franznietzsche said:
I honestly believe that Bush fancies himself as George IV. I honestly laugh at liberals who still care about Roe v Wade and think it matters. What really matters is that every one of George's judicial appointments have clear records of promoting the expansion of executive power. Its for this reason that I am willing to predict a push to eliminate presidential term limits within a decade, because its possible it could get through.
Presidential term limits were enacted via the 22nd Amendment. An amendment is a change to the constitution - in other words, becomes part of the constitution.

It would take a new amendment, repealing the 22nd, to eliminate Presidential term limits - something that has to be passed by Congress and then ratified by the states (just as the 21st Amendment repealed the 18th Amendment).

That makes the make-up of the court irrelevant, since it would be hard for any court to declare the Constitution, or some part of the Constitution, as unconstitutional.

The only way the court could conceivably figure into this is if the amendment's approval process were suspect. The 22nd took nearly 4 years to be ratified, which makes it one of the three longest ratification periods, but it doesn't even compare to the longest (the 27th Amendment took 203 years to be ratified by the states and easily has the most questionable approval and ratification process).
 
  • #35
BobG said:
Presidential term limits were enacted via the 22nd Amendment. An amendment is a change to the constitution - in other words, becomes part of the constitution.

It would take a new amendment, repealing the 22nd, to eliminate Presidential term limits - something that has to be passed by Congress and then ratified by the states (just as the 21st Amendment repealed the 18th Amendment).

That makes the make-up of the court irrelevant, since it would be hard for any court to declare the Constitution, or some part of the Constitution, as unconstitutional.

The only way the court could conceivably figure into this is if the amendment's approval process were suspect. The 22nd took nearly 4 years to be ratified, which makes it one of the three longest ratification periods, but it doesn't even compare to the longest (the 27th Amendment took 203 years to be ratified by the states and easily has the most questionable approval and ratification process).

What I meant was that there is a clear push towards putting people into government that favor the expansion of executive power. As the courts move that way, the legislature will as well.
 

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