Women Rule: Kick Out Corrupt Old Men & Apply Here

[marlon]

What's interesting, and substantiated by the above articles that I cited, is that the women's willingness to put the best interests of the company ahead of their own best interests, while good for the company, is also what hurts the women in the long run. Instead of taking personal credit for an accomplishment, they share it with the team. The men, when assigned to a team, will instead still work more individually and divide up tasks in a way that makes it easy to assign credit to each of their accomplishments. The work still gets done either way, but with the women, the team actually works as a team, and with the men, they really are just each working as individuals on a component of the project and then coming together at the end to fit all the parts together. At the end, the men are all accountable for their individual contributions, and get rewarded on the merits of those contributions. The women's teams, on the other hand, really worked cooperatively and do not have any way to recognize individual efforts, so just split the credit equally based on the outcome.

But my remark was on how men can get more things done in a group. Yes , better then women.

Examples :

1) compare male music groups to female music groups in number and quality.

2) All the big companies were started by men.

3) Find me a female analogon of the group that started Microsoft.

4) Find me a women's team that gives as much spectacle in whatever sport as an all guy-team.

The list goes on and on and on...

marlon

 

[Astronuc]

1) compare male music groups to female music groups in number and quality.

The Oreos String Quartet is a vibrant, fully professional all female string group which has been performing together for the past six years in London and throughout the UK. The quartet has come to be recognized for its energetic and charismatic performances and highly professional approach. The repertoire of the group includes Classical, Jazz Standards, Show Tunes, Classic pop and some of their own highly original arrangements.

http://www.oreosstringquartet.co.uk/

Bond (Female string quartet)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/2948689.stm
http://www.deccaclassics.com/artists/bond/biog.asp
http://www.undercover.com.au/idol/bond.html

2) All the big companies were started by men.

And that was achieved when women were discouraged from entering the business world - and many prior to the various Rights Movements.

3) Find me a female analogon of the group that started Microsoft.

what about Anita Roddick (The Body Shop) or Sandy Lerner (Cisco) or Kay Koplovitz (USA Networks)? http://www3.babson.edu/CWL/research/Myths-and-Realities-of-Women-Entrepreneurs.cfm
Perhaps these examples not as big as Microsoft, but that only means it has happened - yet. On the other hand, Cisco is a Big company.

4) Find me a women's team that gives as much spectacle in whatever sport as an all guy-team.

The US Womens Soccer Team, the US Womens Basketball team. Both team have put in great performances!

 

[turbo]

4) Find me a women's team that gives as much spectacle in whatever sport as an all guy-team.

Apparently, beach volleyball has not caught on where you are. :!)

 

[honestrosewater]

But my remark was on how men can get more things done in a group. Yes , better then women.

Examples :

1) compare male music groups to female music groups in number and quality.

2) All the big companies were started by men.

3) Find me a female analogon of the group that started Microsoft.

4) Find me a women's team that gives as much spectacle in whatever sport as an all guy-team.

The list goes on and on and on...

marlon

Oh, puhleez. I thought you were a scientist? Even if you are right, you're never going to prove it this way. Are you choosing areas in which women and men have been on equal footing and had equal opportunities to succeed? Can you name a male analog to the group that started Microsoft? What would that even be? What is the connection between being able to get things done in a group and starting a successful musical group or any of your other 'tests'? And anyway, that something doesn't happen doesn't imply that it can't happen.

It seems to me that what you would need to do is find groups of women that failed and try to discover the reasons for their failure. And find something like, say, a failure rate for groups of women and compare that to the failure rate for groups of men. No?

 

[wolram]

Out of all this rhetoric i would still give women the chance, what can we loose?

 

[wolram]

The new rules for this discusion.

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/crackpot.html

 

[marlon]

And

The Oreos String Quartet is a vibrant, fully professional all female string group which has been performing together for the past six years in London and throughout the UK.

err, you have many male variants of that as well. My point was, a group that has the same famosity and well known repertoire as let's say The Beatles, Rolling Stones, Dire Straits, Metallica, Nirvana, Guns 'n' Roses.

Let's forget about classical composers because they were all men.

And that was achieved when women were discouraged from entering the business world - and many prior to the various Rights Movements.

Then toake the female variant of Larry Page and co (ie Google)... the guys that made Netscape, the people that made Doom...

You know, not everything can be countered by saying "ohh well, women were not allowed". What do you think Estée Lauder would have thought about that. Surely she must have heard such arguments, yet that did not stop here. And we are far back in the past with this woman, so it was even more difficult for her.

what about Anita Roddick (The Body Shop) or Sandy Lerner (Cisco) or Kay Koplovitz (USA Networks)? [/QUOTE] No no, Sandy lerner d...as i do wath the truth is. regards marlon

 

[marlon]

Can you name a male analog to the group that started Microsoft?

the guys that started Google, the brothers http://www.forbes.com/finance/lists/10/2004/LIR.jhtml?passListId=10&passYear=2004&passListType=Person&uniqueId=3VFF& who started ALDI. They are the richest people in Europe.

ps : keep in mind that analog does NOT mean "the same"

What is the connection between being able to get things done in a group and starting a successful musical group or any of your other 'tests'?

Clearly, you have not been following the discussion. We are not looking for that connection.

It seems to me that what you would need to do is find groups of women that failed and try to discover the reasons for their failure. And find something like, say, a failure rate for groups of women and compare that to the failure rate for groups of men. No?

With all do respect, NO. I want to balance the achievements of all male groups with all female groups on the top level. That was the original intention of this discussion. Why would we change this all of the sudden ?

regards

marlon

 

[marlon]

Out of all this rhetoric i would still give women the chance, what can we loose?

Ofourse, women should get any chance they deserve, but they should NOT rule

marlon

 

[Astronuc]

err, you have many male variants of that as well.

Yes there are male quartets, and there are mixed quartets. I don't remember hearing an all-male quartet that is as good as Bond (the all-female quartet). Bond is fairly unique.

My point was, a group that has the same famosity and well known repertoire as let's say The Beatles, Rolling Stones, Dire Straits, Metallica, Nirvana, Guns 'n' Roses.

There are plenty of female artists who quite popular and famous - Aretha Franklin, Ella Fitzgerald, Gladys Knight (and the Pips), Natalie Cole, Lena Horne, Diana Ross & The Supremes, Mahalia Jackson (considered by some to be the world's greatest gospel singer), Chrissie Hynde (and the Pretenters), Annie Lenox, Heart (Nancy and Ann Wilson), Grace Slick (Jeffereson Airplane), Janis Joplin, . . . .

No no, Sandy lerner did not found the Cisco company herself.

From its modest beginnings at Stanford University in 1984 when Cisco founders Len Bosack and Sandy Lerner

http://www.cisco.com/warp/public/779/largeent/landingPage/innovation.html
Well, she co-founded it (that's good enough). I don't know of any individual who founded a large company on his (or her) own. One usually requires help from others. Even Edison and Westinghouse had help from others.

Dame Anita Roddick, founder of The Body Shop, is a Non-Executive Director of the Company and was Co-Chair with Gordon Roddick until February 2002. The Company has a consultancy agreement with Anita Roddick Publications Ltd through which Anita provides expertise and creativity to the central and regional product development teams.

Anita opened the first branch of The Body Shop in Brighton in 1976. She was the creative inspiration behind the Company's original style and image. Anita was awarded an OBE in 1988 and a DBE in June 2003

The Body Shop is multi-national.

Now 30 years on The Body Shop is a multi local business with over 2.045 stores serving over 77 million customers in 51 different markets in 25 different languages and across 12 time zones.

Anita Roddick started another company. http://www.anitaroddick.com/aboutanita.php


Lynne Cox - long distance swimmer
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0375415076/?tag=pfamazon01-20

Just about every other person in the world seems like an unfocused dilettante compared to long-distance swimming legend Lynne Cox. Soon At the age of 14, after several years of training hard in pools and the open sea, she was swimming the 26 mile stretch from Catalina Island to the coast of California. A year after that, she surpassed a lifelong goal by not only swimming the English Channel but setting a new men's and women's record in the process. Rather than be satisfied, Cox aimed still higher, conquering the Cook Strait in New Zealand, the Strait of Magellan and, the Cape of Good Hope, none of which had been swum before. Being the first to swim the Bering Sea from Alaska to what was then the Soviet Union is perhaps Cox's most impressive achievement, requiring a phenomenal amount of physical strength and endurance to withstand the chilly waters and diplomatic persistence to gain permission from Gorbachev during the Cold War. Swimming to Antarctica is Cox's remarkably detailed account of her major swims and all that went right and wrong with them. While there are plenty of highs, as one might expect in a memoir by so impressive an athlete, all is not sunshine and roses for Cox. She overcomes extreme physical hardship, predatory sharks, and a swim through a sewage-soaked Nile while suffering from dysentery. There is plenty in Swimming to Antarctica to encourage even non-swimmers to work hard to achieve the seemingly impossible, but Cox, a skilled and highly readable writer, sticks to the swimming, leading the reader by example. For thrills and inspiration, it's hard to find anyone better than Lynne Cox.

from Amazon

Women compete alongside men in Triathalons and Marathons.

Women's records in Marathon
http://www.athletix.org/statistics/wrmarathonwomen.html

Men's records in Marathon
http://www.athletix.org/Statistics/wrMarathonmen.html

Still about 11 minute difference between top men's and women's scores - but they have been converging over the years.

 

[honestrosewater]

Clearly, you have not been following the discussion. We are not looking for that connection.

Well, someone needs to establish that connection: how are these questions that you're asking relevant? How many groups of women have started current Fortune 500 companies? How many groups of women had walked on the moon in 1875? How is either question relevant to either of your claims that (i) women cannot work together in a group at all or (ii) women cannot work together in a group as well as men can?

Besides, the onus would normally fall on you to provide evidence supporting your claims, yes, rather than on others to refute them?

With all do respect, NO. I want to balance the achievements of all male groups with all female groups on the top level. That was the original intention of this discussion. Why would we change this all of the sudden ?

My thoughts exactly: why change? Your first post in this discussion said:

Besides, you do realize that women are not able to work with each other on the same project. Girls just don't get along with each other. This is a psychological fact.

Looking for groups of women that were not able to work together seems like a good start to testing that claim, which is the one I had in mind.

And what do you hope to learn by comparing the achievements of two groups without knowing whether those groups have had and seized the same opportunities?

I'm not actually interested in arguing with you about either of your claims. I just had to point out how erroneous your methods seem to me.

 

[honestrosewater]

Also, don't forget that a music group's success does not depend solely on the ability of its members to work together or whatever, but also -- perhaps more so -- on whether people actually consume their music. So what are lists of music groups supposed to prove?

The same considerations apply to sports, business, etc. These groups don't function in a vacuum.

 

[Moonbear]

Ok, first of all, i used anecdotal evidence to counter your objections on my first post here. In your original post, 99.9% of the content was based upon such evidence. Now, that we both agree that anecdotal evidence does not denote a general trend (like you first said) this must tell you that your original post really did not say that much at all.

Because YOUR original post really says nothing much at all. You claim a trend, but have not given ANY evidence other than anecdotal evidence, then claim anecdotal evidence is useless. You can't have it both ways. I'll just take it that you have no evidence other than your own misguided personal bias on this matter. I'm not surprised. Usually sexist arguments take this tactic of picking and choosing examples of a woman failing here or there and then refusing to acknowledge all the successes or advances made in spite of all the roadblocks put in the way. Show me the studies that demonstrate the trend you speak of, or admit there is no trend other than in your own personally biased point of view. Claiming trends where there isn't even a study to demonstrate a trend is not at all scientific.

 

[Moonbear]

Nobody cares about that if you look at the number of people in the audience. One cannot compare this to the Tour de France, The WorldCup Soccer, the WorldCup Rugby...

And I couldn't care less about any of those. Utterly useless wastes of time. The thread was a nice, light-hearted bit about ruling the world, then you took it to the business world, and as we've shattered those misperceptions of yours, now you're grasping at sports. It's overgrown children who haven't yet left the playground.

C'mon, don't tell me that all my arguments can be countered here, because you know as well as i do wath the truth is.

I know what the truth is. The truth is that you have no argument. We can't counter nothing. Offer up studies, evidence, something more than anectdotal nonsense, picking and choosing of skills that are only important in your own mind. Really...music groups and sports? Neither of those are areas in which popularity and talent necessarily go hand-in-hand. How many people will route for the home team even if they are complete losers? How many people attend concerts of the talentless pop groups? It means nothing. Personally, I think someone like Arethra Franklin beats the socks off the Beatles any day. I don't really know why the Beatles have all the popularity they do.

Now stop derailing this thread.

 

[honestrosewater]

Okay, it's time for Aretha's cover of Let it Be. I'll play it for everyone every afternoon when I take over the world.

 

[wolram]

Okay, it's time for Aretha's cover of Let it Be. I'll play it for everyone every afternoon when I take over the world.

Steady on old girl, when did you get these delusions grandeur

 

[honestrosewater]

Steady on old girl, when did you get these delusions grandeur

Oh, woops. I meant we... when we take over the world. *nervous chuckle*

 

[marlon]

There are plenty of female artists who quite popular and famous

Astronuc, most of the examples you gave are famous women but they are not famous female groups ! This is what we originally talked about. And don't tell me that the Eurythmics are in the same league as the Rolling Stones.

Why didn't you mention Destiny's Child. They indeed are very famous. BUT, all these girls do is sing (well only Beyonce Knowles, but anyhow) and dance but the actual song writing, music producing and editing is done by men in 99.9 % of the cases. the creative work is done by men and don't come and tell me that women are not allowed to do that. Why is there no female variant of Quincy Jones (again : WITH THE SAME LEVEL OF EXPERTISE, HIT SONGS, HIT RECORDS) or Dr Dre, ...

I don't know of any individual who founded a large company on his (or her) own. One usually requires help from others. Even Edison and Westinghouse had help from others.

But i am not talking about individuals i am talking about groups !

The Body Shop is multi-national.

If that's started by an all female group than that would indeed classify as an example.

You see, i don't want to go on and on about this but i do think that i have proven something here. I asked for some examples of all women's achievements in various fields and i don't think you will deny how difficult it is to give good examples. This clearly shows something about the ability of "all female groups" that has nothing to do with female discrimination or whatever. Why ? Because we are talking about various fields, in various areas, various times (eg Estée lauder) and various societies. So the easy way out (ie : women were not allowed to) does not fly here. It is just a fact that statistically, men tend to be more creative, innovative and effective then women. that's all there is to it. i know that this is not a popular message and many people will directly disagree. But i assure you that of those many people, at least 50 % will still agree but just does not have the guts to say it out loud.

regards
marlon

 

[Moonbear]

You see, i don't want to go on and on about this but i do think that i have proven something here. I asked for some examples of all women's achievements in various fields and i don't think you will deny how difficult it is to give good examples. This clearly shows something about the ability of "all female groups" that has nothing to do with female discrimination or whatever. Why ? Because we are talking about various fields, in various areas, various times (eg Estée lauder) and various societies.

No, that's the error in your premise. You're using examples from societies that have ALL discriminated against women. This discrimination has been rather ubiquitous among industrialized nations.

So the easy way out (ie : women were not allowed to) does not fly here. It is just a fact that statistically, men tend to be more creative, innovative and effective then women. that's all there is to it. i know that this is not a popular message and many people will directly disagree. But i assure you that of those many people, at least 50 % will still agree but just does not have the guts to say it out loud.

Again, you're making completely baseless claims. 50% will agree? Oh, nice way to wiggle out of accepting the truth, "they agree with me, but won't admit it"...yep, talk about denial!

I've already pointed you to actual SOURCES that refute your claim completely, that show that women work BETTER in groups.

Though I laugh when you cite bands as good examples of teamwork. Hee. How many times did those bands break up because they couldn't work together long-term?

Oh, by the way, the Eurythmics is not an all female group.

The Supremes, however, was, and unlike the Beatles, the individual members also were highly successful when they moved into independent careers.

With twelve #1 pop singles, numerous gold recordings, soldout concerts, and regular television appearances, the Supremes were not only the most commercially successful female group of the Sixties, but among the top five pop/rock/soul acts of the decade...

The number one female group had 18 Hot 100 hits as the Supremes, nine as Diana Ross and the Supremes, three as Diana Ross and the Supremes and Temptations, twelve as the Supremes after Ross left, and two as the Supremes and the Four Tops. Obviously, the whole was always greater than its parts to its fans, and the Supremes sound as good at the end as they did when the hits first started.

http://www.history-of-rock.com/supremes.htm

As for why women are not moving further ahead in the business world, here is an example of why:

Reaching outside the business community in order to have a woman director is tokenism, and the demise of this practice "is actually a good thing", according to one male director. Yet he too expressed frustration as he watched his fellow directors discuss the desirability of recruiting a woman board member but never actually do it. Year after year, he told us, names of prominent, "highly qualified" women would be proposed, including, once, a Nobel Laureate. These women were rejected, our source said, typically because they were perceived as "too strong ... [the other directors] wanted someone nice and non-controversial, someone who wouldn't rock the boat.". Despite management's avowed desire to have a woman on their board, they have not managed to accomplish this, whatever the actual reason. This male director's opinion was echoed by one of the most distinguished women directors: "They don't want someone who will shake the tree too much."

But if a woman with significant non-profit experience is no longer qualified and a Nobel Laureate is too strong, what does that say about the opportunities for women to make it into the boardroom?

http://www.cyberwerks.com/dataline/mapping/womenonf.html

So Gilmore carved out a dual solution in the form of Connect, a Littleton, Colorado-based IT staffing company she founded with partner Maureen Clarry. The business allows the two women the flexibility they crave while providing them with an outlet for their entrepreneurial drive. In the years since, Connect has grown to a $6.8 million business.

The number of women-owned businesses in this country grew at twice the rate of all firms between 1997 and 2002, jumping 14 percent to 6.2 million, according to the Center for Women's Business Research.
Women-owned businesses account for 28 percent of all privately-owned businesses, and employ 9.2 million people. They contribute $2.38 trillion in revenue to the U.S. economy, according to the Small-Business Association.

http://www.score.org/m_pr_20.html

Marlon, I also wonder why you dismiss academics as not part of the "professional" world? It most certainly is a profession. Could it be that women's groups and teams are successful in academics, so you need to dismiss academics in order to continue tilting at your windmill?

 

[Cyrus]

Though I laugh when you cite bands as good examples of teamwork. Hee. How many times did those bands break up because they couldn't work together long-term?

AHAHAHHAAHHAHAHAHAH! I love your sarcasm.

 

[marlon]

No, that's the error in your premise. You're using examples from societies that have ALL discriminated against women. This discrimination has been rather ubiquitous among industrialized nations.

No, and please stop using the same old arguments to make your point. Many examples that i have given clearly show that this argument does no longer count.

Again, you're making completely baseless claims. 50% will agree? Oh, nice way to wiggle out of accepting the truth, "they agree with me, but won't admit it"...yep, talk about denial!

It is very easy to give answers like this while you are not able to actually make a decent point and show me some good counter examples. Again, sorry, but this does not count.

I've already pointed you to actual SOURCES that refute your claim completely, that show that women work BETTER in groups.

No you have not. I have given you specific examples in various fields that show how well all men groups behave and functions. I asked for all female counter examples but you are not able ti give them. Those are the facts and they are undisputed.

I am still waiting though.

Though I laugh when you cite bands as good examples of teamwork. Hee.

Not only bands, dear Moonbear. As i have said already a thousand times : examples in VARIOUS fields.

But i suppose you will now ask what these fields were no ?

How many times did those bands break up because they couldn't work together long-term?

When did i ever say such bands lived forever ? I am only talking about the time they were a team and what they achieved AS A TEAM. Again, this is an irrelevant remark, Moonbear.

Oh, by the way, the Eurythmics is not an all female group.

But they were indeed successfull, so why am i not surprised they were not all female.

The Supremes, however, was, and unlike the Beatles, the individual members also were highly successful when they moved into independent careers.

Individual careers yes, but we are talking ABOUT GROUPS. So, again, you are way off.

http://www.history-of-rock.com/supremes.htm

I do know the Supremes, you know...or is this just to have another reference

Marlon, I also wonder why you dismiss academics as not part of the "professional" world? It most certainly is a profession.

I already explained that.

Could it be that women's groups and teams are successful in academics, so you need to dismiss academics in order to continue tilting at your windmill?

Ohh, that's so sad...

ps : and i am sure that many of these "great all female groups" (of which YOU once said they do almost NOT exist in the professional world [1]) actually discovered something great or acquired a Nobel Prize.

[1] Read Your Own Posts Moonbear, july 2006

regards
marlon

 

[honestrosewater]

You see, i don't want to go on and on about this but i do think that i have proven something here.

Wow, congrats! You'll want to get it published then, no doubt. Don't forget that when they tell you that you are a crackpot, you can claim that it is a feminist conspiracy or something.

If you care nothing about being a decent scientist, you might still want to be more careful about checking the truth of your claims in case you cross the line with someone and have to defend yourself against charges of libel, slander, or hate speech some day. Just a thought.

 

[Evo]

Marlon, you're being ridiculous now. You know that women have historically been deprived of higher education and positions in business. Yes, there have been exceptions, but very few. In many countries women couldn't own or inherit property or wealth. Of course there are currently more men than women in positions of power, but the tide is shifting.

Are you aware that more women than men are getting college degrees in the US? More men are taking menial jobs and more women are becoming professionals.

"Between 1970 and 2001, women went from being the minority to the majority of the U.S. undergraduate population, increasing their representation from 42 percent to 56 percent of undergraduates (Freeman 2004). Projections to 2013 indicate that women's undergraduate enrollment will increase to 8.9 million or 57 percent of the undergraduate population (Gerald and Hussar 2003). Consistent with these enrollment changes, women surpassed their male peers in educational expectations and degree attainment over the last 30 years "

http://nces.ed.gov/programs/quarterly/vol_7/1_2/5_7.asp

 

[Moonbear]

Wow, congrats! You'll want to get it published then, no doubt. Don't forget that when they tell you that you are a crackpot, you can claim that it is a feminist conspiracy or something.

I believe you've hit the nail on the head!

Marlon, we're done here. You're just arguing the same nonsense over and over and refusing to listen to the evidence to the contrary. You still have not provided a single, credible source to back up any of your claims, yet continue to make your claims in the face of only mounting contradictory evidence. That's called crackpottery, plain and simple.

 

[Omega_6]

I don't really think I have seen any good evidence from either side lately. Does it really matter how many men or women do this or that? Or how many more "prestigious" men there are than women. Why can't everyone just accept that certain individuals are better at some things than others, regardless of sex.

However, I have seen that women back each other up much more than men...

 

[Cyrus]

Hey, now that Marlons a crackpot, can I have his guru award. It be a shame to let it go to waste after we ban him

 

[Evo]

Agreed, this thread is going nowhere.