YOU: Fix the US Energy Crisis

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The discussion centers on developing a comprehensive plan to address the US energy crisis, emphasizing the need to define specific problems such as pollution from coal, rising demand outpacing supply, foreign oil dependence, and high costs. A proposed solution involves a 30-year, multi-phase approach that includes constructing modern nuclear power plants, heavily funding alternative energy research, and implementing immediate regulations to reduce pollution. The plan outlines a significant investment, potentially $3 trillion over 30 years, but promises long-term benefits like reduced pollution, increased energy capacity, and lower costs. Participants also highlight the importance of political will and public awareness in driving these changes. Ultimately, the conversation underscores the urgency of addressing energy issues through innovative and practical solutions.
  • #701
PhilKravitz said:
Issue as I see it is lack of energy independence.

My favored solution is what some call the Matt Simmons plan (see Ocean Energy Institute) which is
1) off shore wind powered electrical generators up and down both the west and east coast
2) on shore wind up and down the middle of the country
3) PV solar in the southwest
4) oil from algea in the southeast
Before paying them, have you given any thought to how those sources work technically, e.g. when the wind doesn't blow, when the sun doesn't shine?
 
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  • #702
mheslep said:
Before paying them, have you given any thought to how those sources work technically, e.g. when the wind doesn't blow, when the sun doesn't shine?

I like storage of the energy in the form of hydrogen from water+electric+catalyst. Which is getting easier thanks to the work of the folks at MIT.
 
  • #703
PhilKravitz said:
I like storage of the energy in the form of hydrogen from water+electric+catalyst. Which is getting easier thanks to the work of the folks at MIT.

While I do firmly believe in a hydrogen based economy, there are still a lot of issues to be worked out. The folks at MIT did (somewhat accidentally) find a way to electrolyze water efficiently but that doesn't mean its applicable to full scale industrial applications. AFAIK, things like durability, cost, and purity still need to be addressed with that technique.

As of right now, the only commercially available methods of large scale energy storage is with flywheels and thermal reservoirs used by solar thermal power plants.

Interesting factoid: Humanity doesn't have an energy supply problem. By constructing solar thermal or photovoltaic solar energy farms over just 1% of the land in the Sahara Desert, we could supply all of the worlds energy with essentially no pollution. The problem that we needs to be solved is an energy distribution problem.
 
  • #704
Topher925 said:
As of right now, the only commercially available methods of large scale energy storage is with flywheels and thermal reservoirs used by solar thermal power plants.
And hydro.
 
  • #705
mheslep said:
And hydro.

Woops, forgot about that one.
 
  • #706
Yes hydro is fine but pretty much fully developed in the US. Some options in Canada if you are willing to violate the rights of the original owns and push them out.
 
  • #707
PhilKravitz said:
Yes hydro is fine but pretty much fully developed in the US...
With regards to hydro electric power and storage:
1) All existing hydro, some 8% of total US electric power capacity, can be used to store energy. That is, while solar or wind is online hydro can be (and is) simply idled, allowing water to backup and its potential energy is used later when needed.
2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-storage_hydroelectricity" , ~3% of US electric power capacity, can be installed nearly anywhere there's a hill large enough hold a lake, i.e. with sufficient elevation. It does not require a large natural water source.

This is not say that pumped storage hydro is a blanket solution to the energy storage problem presented by large scale use of intermittent power sources likes wind and solar, but it certainly can help.
 
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  • #708
mheslep said:
With regards to hydro electric power and storage:
1) All existing hydro, some 8% of total US electric power capacity, can be used to store energy. That is, while solar or wind is online hydro can be (and is) simply idled, allowing water to backup and its potential energy is used later when needed.
2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-storage_hydroelectricity" , ~3% of US electric power capacity, can be installed nearly anywhere there's a hill large enough hold a lake, i.e. with sufficient elevation. It does not require a large natural water source.

This is not say that pumped storage hydro is a blanket solution to the energy storage problem presented by large scale use of intermittent power sources likes wind and solar, but it certainly can help.

#1 is a super good idea that I have never heard before. Is it yours? If so get it out in the public it is good.

#2 yes I like pumped hydro storage. In fact Astor (yes the guy who drowned on the Titanic) wrote a book in 1895 (yes 18!) that proposed pumped hydro storage! The book is "A Journey in Other Worlds" it is mostly about a trip to Saturn and the dinosaurs they find there but along the way he make some comments on energy systems that are 100 years ahead of his time.
 
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  • #709
PhilKravitz said:
#1 is a super good idea that I have never heard before. Is it yours?
Storing power until needed later through hydro has been around as long as there has been hydro.
 
  • #710
So between hydro and hydrogen we have storage taken care of. :)

Now all we have to do is figure out how much money (work and natural resources) it will take to build the system. ;)
 
  • #711
PhilKravitz said:
So between hydro and hydrogen we have storage taken care of. :)
You didn't here that from me; again:
mheslep said:
This is not say that pumped storage hydro is a blanket solution to the energy storage problem presented by large scale use of intermittent power sources likes wind and solar, but it certainly can help.
 
  • #712
OK how much of the storage issue is covered by hydro and hydrogen? Anybody know? How will we find out?
 
  • #713
PhilKravitz said:
OK how much of the storage issue is covered by hydro and hydrogen? Anybody know? How will we find out?

Probably not. We will find out when someone does a study of it.
 
  • #714
Towards Nuclear Fusion: Cobalt properties (specifically of its usage at different temperatures, not the usual).
 
  • #716
Another problem is to create parts and devices without having oil involved. Every part and machine involved must be created with oil substitutes (e.g. no plastics). If you develop a new energetic system but you need oil to build it or transport the parts, then you're not solving the problem.
 
  • #717
russ_watters said:
We always have threads on various pieces of the puzzle, but what I want here is for people to post a coherent plan of how to fix the energy problems we have in the US (and critique what others propose). Some groundrules:

First, though most would agree there are issues, people won't necessarily agree on what they are/what the most important are. So define the problem as you see it before proposing the solution. The usual suspects are: safety, capacity, pollution, cost, future availability of resources, and foreign dependence. Obviously, feel free to modify that list.

Second, I want specific, coherent plans. Don't just say 'reduce CO2 emissions' or 'increase production' - tell me how.

Third, money is important, but not critical (for this thread), so don't let it constrain your ambition. I want solutions that will work - paying for them is another matter. Obviously, any solution will require making tough choices and (in the short term, anyway) spending a lot of money. No need to build a new budget to support it. If you say you want to spend a trillion dollars a year, fine (but the benefit had better be big).

http://www.agmrc.org/markets/info/energyoverview.pdf is a site from another thread with some background info on what we use for what.

I'll go first...

Hello Russ and fellow contributors, I think your question is great!

In 2006 I got the insane idea of purchasing a boat, she's 177' long 42' beam, all steel, end of WWII F/S class ship really. When I got her it was with a general idea of helping to save the oceans with her as a research vessel. Now you ask what in the world does this have to do with fixing anything related to energy right, well here's how.

After getting her and learning all about what makes her run, probably should have done that before getting her; she has seven diesel engines, holds 65,000 US gallons of diesel, burns around 800 us gallons a day when under full cruising speed (around 12.5 knots) and over a 42 week work year generates around 700 tons of emissions, "pollution".

Two problems for a ocean saving vessel, one is it cost a condo every time she gets fueled up and two she pollutes to high heaven, not very Earth friendly.

So, I started looking into ways of running her with lower cost fuel and with hopefully near zero emissions. After five years of research and a bunch of hard work I have a working 125KW prototype electric generation plant that runs on H2O2, and will be running on waste oil. http://www.seabirdadventure.com/tesla-turbine-projects

How does this help, by building a electric power plant that runs on H2O2 and waste oils? H2O2 is a renewable resource and easily made while waste oil is currently being stored and improperly disposed of. http://www.seabirdadventure.com/waste-oil-as-a-fuel-source

The idea is to build three power plants of 850KW each to run the Seabird at full cruising speed while using a waste product and creating zero emissions. That comes out to a little more the 2.4 million watts of electricity, to make a comparison a 3500 sqft house uses about 80KW per day so these power plants would power about 30 homes with AC running and all their lights on.

Now granted that over time as waste oil is eliminated from society this solution would not help much but right now the US gathers and stores around 1.2 billions gallons of waste oil per year with 800 million gallons being disposed of improperly.

Please let me know what you think, thanks

Kris
 
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  • #718
mheslep said:
Storing power until needed later through hydro has been around as long as there has been hydro.
Here is one or two built earlier.http://www.fhc.co.uk/
 
  • #719
More government funding for universities to make researches on things such as energy density/biofuels/plasma energy sources/etc.

The US is mostly a flat territory, making cars use natural gas instead of gasoline something serious, shouldn't be a problem, start selling only fluorescent bulbs, shouldn't be something hard to do as well

The US should leave 3rd world countries alone and don't depend so much on that, yeah, that would not follow the ''superpower'' ideal americans have, but i don't care

organize campaigns, concerts, etc. to promote the green-thinking

eventhough US is the paradise for capitalists, it should lower though, capitalism causes consumism and consumism causes a lot of damage to nature
 
  • #720
I've written an article about this a while ago, funny to find this discussion going on while I was looking for something completely different.

First of all, I'm not a sceptic, nor a scientist, and my main language sure aint english. I'm just trying to be realistic a give my view on this matter, so bare with me.

In my opinion there are some mayor flaws in how the general public looks at alternative energy sources, which may very well be the result of our governments or the large oil companies behind them. A real soltion in my opinion lies in a Technique yet to be dicovered or perfected, while most of us think we can do it with the techniques we allready have. I'll elaborate on this later on.

We are never going to switch to a completely different source of energy in a realistic amount of time, without certains parties benefitting or at least not being disadvantaged by it. When a brilliant scientist finds a solution for all of our energy problems today (for example discovers some sort of perpetuum mobilae), he will be dead tomorrow. Such a solution would destroy our economies, which are driven by oil. Hence the need for a solution that doesn't disadvantage the oil-companies or at least tries to prevent them from going bust.

To cut things short, I believe a solution would be found in a combination of techniques over a period of time. In a first phase we would need to reduce our current trend in polluting our planet and reduce the trend of our energy consumption from materials that are bound to run out in a short period (oil, coal, gas, etc).
The second phase, which needs to run in parallel with all other phases, is looking for alternative power production methods. This should be a heavilly funded non-stop operation.
The third phase would consist of making the switch to these new techniques. From what is known to me today, I'd say a combination of nuclear Fusion together with Hydrogen is our best bet.

Phase 1: At the present we have a few alternative energy production methods at our disposal. The first step in a long term solution would be to use solutions more, and cut back in waste (both energy waste as waste products like CO2). This in a short term won't solve our problems, but would at atleast make them less pressing, giving us time to come up with a consturctive way of resolving these issues.

Phase 2: In this second stage, which should run parrelel to the other stages, we would need find an alternative energy production method which can sustain our growing energy consumption on the long term. The basic idea that seems to be running arround is that we will all use solar/wind/biomass/hydrogen power over 50 years instead of the conventional coal/nuclear power we use today. I believe this isn't true, I'll elaborate later on. The only viable solution for as far as I know of would be something in the means of Nuclear Fusion. Nuclear Fusion has great potential, and should be ready for use in a matter of years. But as stated before, we won't be able to make a switch any time soon. This in my opinion creates a lot of lag in the development of this technique, hence I must put allot of emphasis on this phase. Looking at the current state of politics (encouraging alternative power, but not putting enough emphasis on a real solution), I am convinced we will not make a shift towards an alternative power supply without certain parties benefitting from it.

In the Third stage we would implement all of the above. This is where things get critical. We need to solve our energy issues, without tearing down multiple economies. So, why not use a combination, like we are allready doing today. The oil companies provide us with the juice required to make our engines and factories work, including production of many oil-based products, while the power companies provide us with the electricity to power our homes and bussinesses. For the sake of our economies, let's try to keep it this way. Give the oil companies a free pass to become the only producers of Hydrogen, give the power companies a free pass to become the only producers of Fusion Power. Production of all other oil-based products can continue by the Oil companies (imo oil has a greater value to us as a raw material for plastics etc anyways compared to a raw material for energy production) The mayor benefit of having a renewable and pritty much unlimited power supply, such as Fusion Power, is it gives us the ability to create large quantaties of Hydrogen. All you need to make large quantaties of Hydrogen is electricity, and lots of it.
Oil companies will be satified since making Hydrogen with electricity is much more cost effective then mining for oil, and we'll just let them sell it from approximately the same price as gas for the starting period (to overcome the costs of making the shift). Power companies will need allot of Funding to make such a shift since constructing, perfecting and maintaining Nuclear Power plants is going to cost allot. But I feel if we would distribute this financial burden ammongst all the population benefitting from it we could make it. Or else the governments should put the taxes on gas to a good use.

Finally an elaboration why I think other techniques lack posibility to become our prime way of harvesting power:
- Solar power, lots of potential since it has a lot of yield, but did you ever think about the environmental issues? I mean, your taking energy out of the environment and returning it in a different state. Harmless on a small scale, but what about large scale implementation? Imo, a great addition to our current energy production methods, but no replacement. Also the storage and unreliability (called night or clouds) of this form of energy is a huge problem.
- Biomass Power, from waste: Excellent idea. From crops specificly grown to produce Biomass, TERRIBLE idea. We'd be better of sending those crops to parts of the world straving...
- Hydro Power, geographicly speaking there aren't enough places to build these power plants to sustain our power consumption in the long term, specially for the smaller flat countries (like the Netherlands where I'm from). Not to mention about their potential impact on the environment.. (Dam's build to create artificial lakes are known to have destroyed complete habbitats etc etc.) Again, a nice addition if the environment permits it.
- Wind Energy, if the wind stops blowing, then so does your energy supply. Basicly the same as Solar energy.
- Hydrogen Energy, has huge potential but should be seen (in my opinion) more as a medium to transport energy, rather then an energy source. The most common way to create Hydrogen resides on Electrolysis, which requires electricity. Any other method also requires energy to make Hydrogen. Theres no viable way of making Hydrogen a power supply at this moment, nor will there ever be because of this simple restraint. Even if microbes were to make hydrogen (the most viable solution imo as of today), it would still require huge microbe farms harvesting the power of the sun to make hydrogen.

I'm eager to hear your opinions and critics on this story, since I'm not in any position to share this story to anyone with ample knowledge. Hence I posted it here.
 
  • #721
Given the vast new finds of natural gas in the US,

CADDO PARISH, La. -- A massive natural-gas discovery here in northern Louisiana heralds a big shift in the nation's energy landscape. After an era of declining production, the U.S. is now swimming in natural gas...
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124104549891270585.html

solar cracking of methane may provide a viable path to a carbon-free hydrogen supply.

Background – The SOLHYCARB proposal addresses the exploration of an unconventional route for potentially cost effective hydrogen production with solar energy. The novel process thermally decomposes natural gas (NG) in a high temperature chemical reactor heated by concentrated solar energy. This process results in two products: a H2-rich gas and a high-value nano-material, carbon black (CB). H2 is thus produced with renewable energy. Solar energy is stored as a transportable fuel. The fuel has zero CO2 emission: carbon as opposed to CO2 is sequestered. Fossil fuels are saved, and CB is synthesized.

This solar process is described in Figure 1...
http://www.pre.ethz.ch/research/projects/?id=solhycarb
 
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  • #722
I have been thinking Carbon is a good storage method for Hydrogen. I.E. we make our own methane. We already have a natural gas transport and storage technology.
As for as a long term transport solution, think about making the US interstate system a power grid. Technologies are being worked on now which allow electrical power to cross an air gap. If hybrid vehicles had a secondary tuned circuit to receive power from the powered lane, you could cross the country and the electric use be recorded on your cars electric meter. This might be more useful for long haul trucks. Fuel would still be used, but only for local trips, and to and from the interstate.
Other ideas include homeowners leasing their roofs to power companies for solar power generation. Rent is paid in the form of a percent of power generated.
Fixing our energy issues will require thinking way outside the box.
 
  • #723
hello, my name is rodney, and I am not a very school educated person, but more of an experience educated person, so forgive me if my thoughts seem primitive, or immature to a more scholarly individual. i have had many thoughts on the subject of off grid electricty generation, many of the ones out there are pretty expencive to get started, solar? wind? water? everything costs money i know but the thoughts of men can be free.
that in mind; let's look at a different kind of thought.
energy? electricity? pollution? foreign dependency? we need as a country in our country, an electrical generation machine that does not produce polution, independent from need of outside country help, and does not need a specific fuel persay to run.

perpetual motion electricity generation; maybe using pendulums and counter weights, to produce a perpetual motion electricity generating machine. i believe it is not only possible but in reality can be done using a switch to switch counter weight ballances to keep the motion going. when one weight gets to its optimum a switch turns it or switches it to use the other side of a set of weights to keep it in a see saw affect, using gears simular to a grand father clock, only in a large enough scale to turn off set pulleys to turn power generators. using gears and counter weights this concept could and can be a reality. i realize the thoughts on the friction debate, but i believe that if enough people put enough thought into the actual building of this, IT CAN BE feasable.

and to the problem of the case for friction i say one word,... GREASE!

i wish to hear any comments good or bad to my thinking, and again please forgive me for my ignorance. R.E.VanAlstine.
 
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  • #724
Um no... That will never happen.
 
  • #725
revaredneck said:
...

perpetual motion electricity generation; maybe using pendulums and counter weights, to produce a perpetual motion electricity generating machine. i believe it is not only possible but in reality can be done using a switch to switch counter weight ballances to keep the motion going. ...
Hello Rodney. That topic is not allowed here.

PF list of banned topics said:
...Perpetual motion and "free energy" discussions
Search PF and you will find many threads that have been closed in a number of forums. As for S&D, any claim of this nature would be reproducible and/or testable by the scientific community; hence there is no need for debate.
https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=2269439&postcount=2
 
  • #726
may i ask why?
 
  • #727
Because it violates the laws of physics and discussing it attracts crackpots.
 
  • #728
General rule: if you think you've disproved the second law of thermodynamics and can get free energy, it's best to just keep that a secret.

As for the energy topic, has anyone done any significant fact-finding into this new thorium-based nuclear reactor business? I've heard it touted as the new "holy grail" for nuclear energy. Also, I've heard that Paul Pantone's GEET system is supposed to revolutionize fueled vehicles. A friend of mine really believes in it, but then again, he's a website designer with no engineering experience. I would like to know if anyone can show that these systems aren't all that they're cracked up to be.
 
  • #729
I like the idea of PV collectors, and looked into it several years ago. At that time many energy saving items were a better value than PV. Windows, Radiant barrier, better insulation, ect... . I see part of the issue with PV is the payback curve. You are trying to get your house's power usage down to where the area of the roof can collect the average usage. By the time the usage and surface curves cross, the payback is past the life expectancy of the panels.
Another issue I found with PV was purely accounting. In the late 90's none of the factories making panels, were running the factories with their own panels.
If they could not save money by using panels that only cost them their "cost of goods sold--less marketing" How could a homeowner save money paying the full price.
Prices have been coming down, and panels would shade the roof, Grid tied solved the peak vs average issue. Maybe time to revisit.
 
  • #730
johnbbahm said:
I like the idea of PV collectors
As do I, and my father before me.
, and looked into it several years ago. At that time many energy saving items were a better value than PV. Windows, Radiant barrier, better insulation, ect... .
This is why I invested in OC. :wink:
I see part of the issue with PV is the payback curve. You are trying to get your house's power usage down to where the area of the roof can collect the average usage. By the time the usage and surface curves cross, the payback is past the life expectancy of the panels.
Another issue I found with PV was purely accounting.
As it should have been, and should be.
In the late 90's none of the factories making panels, were running the factories with their own panels.
Location, location, location. Solarworld built the largest solar manufacturing http://www.solarworld-usa.com/news-and-resources/news/solarworld-opens-north-americas-largest-solar-cell-manufacturing-facility.aspx" in North America in Oregon. Why? Oregon has abundant fresh water. (That's the reason I heard anyways)

It would be great to make the panels in New Mexico, or southern California, where the sun always shines, but where would you get the water from?
If they could not save money by using panels that only cost them their "cost of goods sold--less marketing" How could a homeowner save money paying the full price.
Prices have been coming down, and panels would shade the roof, Grid tied solved the peak vs average issue. Maybe time to revisit.

Check out https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=324207".

I would explain to him an engineering modification to his existing array to improve his overall system efficiency by 300%, but that would steal all of his fun.

99% of the fun of science is figuring things out for yourself. :smile:

---------------------------------
Spock: He is intelligent, but not experienced. His pattern indicates two-dimensional thinking.
The Borg Queen: You think in such three-dimensional terms. How small you've become.
Me, interpreting how http://www.fritjofcapra.net/" thinks: Imagine the universe, interconnected, in a poly-dimensional web, where everything affects everything.
 
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  • #731
timthereaper said:
has anyone done any significant fact-finding into this new thorium-based nuclear reactor business?

I have been looking into this for a few months. I have posted a link to a good site on the subject. I can not post the link a second time here because it violates PF rules.

The energy from thorium forum has a lively discussion of thorium reactors. Oak Ridge operated a small thorium reactor for several years in the 60s. The Chinese are currently building a proof of concept thorium reactor. In the US a new company Flibe Energy has been formed to provide thorium reactors to US military bases that want "base islanding" (there own power supply). Two researcher one from Brookhaven National Labs and one from Israel have gotten money from the US Israeli National Science Foundation to study thorium reactors.

So the net is it is an active field. We will see what comes of it in five years.
 
  • #732
I was discussing with a co-worker her desire to trade in her mid-size crossover SUV for a full-size SUV. I think she and other people go with the SUV and large vehicles generally because the seats are at hip level and it makes getting things (i.e. kids, etc) in and out easier. Try designing a car, maybe with Goldwing doors or something that allows more access inside the car. That and people are fat here, and here in America that makes SUVs the defacto means of transportation since it is the only way for most people to avoid the humiliation of having to tell your boss you were late to work because you got stuck in your seat while trying to exit your car.

Ok, that was senile.

Red tape. Government puts too much red tape around nuclear power. Sensationalism from Chernobyl, 3 Mile and now Japan means it will not happen in this country. People have too much fear of nuclear power to prevent sending 19 year old kids to their death in Iraq. Ok, a little senile as well.

Maybe congress should take the restrictions off more effecient reactor designs like breeder reactors. I think all the red tape is there to prevent a collapse of the coal industry and, what would be far worse for their pocketbooks, a contraction in the oil industry. Outside of a great new breakthrough in fusion technology all the "alternatives" we have are not alternatives.

They are the status quo. Nuclear energy and PV cells are nothing new so why would anyone consider them "alternatives"?
 
  • #733
U.S. Researcher Preparing Prototype Cars Powered by Heavy-Metal Thorium
http://wardsauto.com/ar/thorium_power_car_110811/
http://www.geek.com/articles/geek-cetera/8-grams-of-thorium-could-replace-gasoline-in-cars-20110812/
 
  • #734
Greg Bernhardt said:
U.S. Researcher Preparing Prototype Cars Powered by Heavy-Metal Thorium
http://wardsauto.com/ar/thorium_power_car_110811/
http://www.geek.com/articles/geek-cetera/8-grams-of-thorium-could-replace-gasoline-in-cars-20110812/

A 250 MW unit weighing about 500 lbs. (227 kg) would be small and light enough to drop under the hood of a car, he says.
i.e. 336 thousand HP? Under the hood of the Space Shuttle more like it. Sounds like a crackpot link.
 
  • #735
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  • #736
mheslep said:
i.e. 336 thousand HP? Under the hood of the Space Shuttle more like it. Sounds like a crackpot link.

Oh stop exaggerating.

Small blocks of thorium generate heat surges that are configured as a thorium-based laser, Stevens tells Ward’s. These create steam from water within mini-turbines, generating electricity to drive a car.

It's probably only 25% efficient, so it won't generate any more than 84,000 hp.

Though I was just thinking about such a thing today; "My investment is almost risk free. Unless of course, someone actually does invent a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr._Fusion#Mr._Fusion" device"

:eek:
 
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  • #737
Despite Secretary Chu and President Obama looking to drastically cut and slow down the development of fuel cell and hydrogen technology, fuel cell vehicles seem to be growing and progressing faster than ever. Mercedes-Benz recently bumped up their FCV release date to 2014 from 2015 stating,

We have proven that by sending three vehicles with a fuel cell around the globe without any relevant problems. The issue is infrastructure. We made this trip to prove technology is ready and we need partners to take care of infrastructure.
http://www.insideline.com/mercedes-benz/mercedes-benz-fuel-cell-car-ready-for-market-in-2014.html

Toyota is still planning on mass producing their FC Highlander in 2015 and GM and Honda have stated that they will follow and be releasing vehicles in the same time frame.

It appears that the fuzzy future of alt fuels for transportation applications is becoming more clear. The only problem now is developing the infrastructure. While the US is doing diddly-squat to create a hydrogen fuel infrastructure Europe and Japan are well on their way to support hydrogen technologies.

The European Union and the world’s largest automakers have stated that they will be ready with hydrogen cars and H2 fueling stations by the year 2015. Meanwhile the Federal Government of the United States has stated they have no intention on being ready and are most willing to be followers instead of leaders in these emerging technologies.
http://www.icinola.com/hydrogen-cars/denmark-and-germany-open-new-hydrogen-fueling-stations/

I think the answer to the question "What will replace the ICE powered car?" is quickly becoming Fuel Cell Hybrid Electric Vehicles (FCHEV's) with a mix of a BEV's owning a small portion of the market. Now if we could just get our act together maybe we can make this transition quick and painless.
 
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  • #738
On Mercedes FCV round the http://www.insideline.com/mercedes-benz/b-class/mercedes-benz-b-class-f-cell-set-for-trip-around-the-world.html":
"On remote routes a tank vehicle will be on hand to supply the fuel cell vehicles with the necessary hydrogen," said [Mercedes Benz]
That doesn't sound like a build out of the H2 infrastructure is well on its way.
 
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  • #739
mheslep said:
That doesn't sound like a build out of the H2 infrastructure is well on its way.

That's a rather naive statement. Its obvious that there are remote locations in the world that won't have H2 fueling stations just as there are routes that don't have gas or diesel stations.
 
  • #740
Topher925 said:
...just as there are routes that don't have gas or diesel stations.
In the US? What routes would these be?
 
  • #741
Wires are cheaper than hydrogen pipelines.
 
  • #742
Seems to me there is a good solution if you believe in our ingenuity. I personally believe we can solve almost any engineering problem if we put enough will, brains and money into it. We had a smart president once who believed that and we went to the moon. There were probably many nabobs of negativism then who were against it or didn't believe it was possible. I am sure many of those same types will pan this idea too. I will say right now they are wrong.

Every single person on this planet is standing on top of an unlimited clean source of power. Geothermal energy if exploited would solve almost all our energy needs essentially forever. All we need is another Kennedy to focus the national will and resources and all the obstacles could be solved. I KNOW that is true.
 
  • #743
moejoe15 said:
...

Every single person on this planet is standing on top of an unlimited clean source of power. Geothermal energy if exploited would solve almost all our energy needs essentially forever.
Do you know how you know this is true, and can explain how, or is that statement a matter of faith?

All we need is another Kennedy to focus the national will and resources and all the obstacles could be solved. I KNOW that is true.
The Moon landing was a spectacular achievement, yet it still amounted to sending only three men there a few times over. Constructing a mechanism that can provide something like energy cheaply to billions of people is an entirely different venture.
 
  • #744
tumor said:
For start, force people to switch from incadescent lightbulbs to fluorescent ones. In USA fluorescent bulbs are still BIG news.Small steps like this can make big difference.

Actually, LED bulbs are starting to be available that are lower power input, longer-lasting and not subject to breakage and mercury leakage. These need to be better - right now LEDs available are too expensive, too heavy for some applications, and not bright enough (I looked recently for a 100W replacement, and didn't find one).
 
  • #745
mheslep said:
Do you know how you know this is true, and can explain how, or is that statement a matter of faith?...

I was under the impression that there is molten core at the center of the earth? Not true? You don't have to dig far in some places to tap heat and heat is energy. Geothermal is already used in places where the heat is close to the surface and easily tapped. It's there everywhere if you dig deep enough and think it is just an engineering problem and if there is anything we do well it is overcome engineering problems. There are places in the US where it isn't far under the surface. Yellowstone for one. We routinely drill over a mile down now, I think we can get much farther down if we tried. The point is the energy is there, all we have to do is figure out how to get it instead of throwing up our hands and saying it's impossible as people like you want to do.
 
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  • #746
moejoe15 said:
I was under the impression that there is molten core at the center of the earth? Not true? You don't have to dig far in some places to tap heat and heat is energy. Geothermal is already used in places where the heat is close to the surface and easily tapped. It's there everywhere if you dig deep enough and think it is just an engineering problem and if there is anything we do well it is overcome engineering problems. There are places in the US where it isn't far under the surface. Yellowstone for one. We routinely drill over a mile down now, I think we can get much farther down if we tried. The point is the energy is there, all we have to do is figure out how to get it instead of throwing up our hands and saying it's impossible as people like you want to do.

Nobody was suggesting it was impossible but there are huge technical challenges with widespread geothermal power. Suggesting it as an option without providing good explanation as to why and how is as sensible and productive as saying "if we had lots of solar power we could cheaply power the Earth". It's superficially true but working out the science and engineering of how to make it work is a different story entirely.
 
  • #747
moejoe15 said:
... The point is the energy is there, all we have to do is figure out how to get it instead of throwing up our hands and saying it's impossible as people like you want to do.
Yes and the energy of the Sun is there, all we have to do is figure out how to send spaceships to the sun and get it. Look, this is an engineering forum. It seems to me you have two options: actually engage in investigating the possibilities of energy sources such as geothermal, if that is your interest, or preach dogma (to an appropriate audience somewhere else).
 
  • #748
I see, so I should either go out and drill or shut up. Thanks for clearing up the purpose of this thread.
 
  • #749
moejoe15 said:
I see, so I should either go out and drill or shut up. Thanks for clearing up the purpose of this thread.

It's not just the purpose of this thread it is the purpose of this entire forum to provide thorough and well reasoned explanations in as much detail as possible using sources from peer-reviewed literature. Initial ideas are fine but when questioned you should be prepared to back up a claim with detailed data and if you read the first post in this thread you will see that the specific purpose here is not to throw around initial ideas but to present fully thought out proposals.

So please don't think there is anything wrong with posting initial ideas such as "I think we should use more geothermal energy" but when somebody asks you to elaborate you should provide proper and thorough explanations and proposals rather than becoming defensive and dismissive.
 
  • #750
moejoe15 said:
I see, so I should either go out and drill or shut up. Thanks for clearing up the purpose of this thread.
You could provide an estimate of how much power geothermal energy can provide. How many kW per square meter? How many square meters are required to power the United States (or the world, or other country of your choice)? Without doing that, you don't really know if geothermal is viable or not.

If we had those estimates, we could have a discussion about the merits of geothermal power.

[EDIT added:]
And if you can't provide the estimates yourself, you may simply ask "What about geothermal power? How many kW per square meter could it provide? etc. etc."
 
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