YOU: Fix the US Energy Crisis

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The discussion centers on developing a comprehensive plan to address the US energy crisis, emphasizing the need to define specific problems such as pollution from coal, rising demand outpacing supply, foreign oil dependence, and high costs. A proposed solution involves a 30-year, multi-phase approach that includes constructing modern nuclear power plants, heavily funding alternative energy research, and implementing immediate regulations to reduce pollution. The plan outlines a significant investment, potentially $3 trillion over 30 years, but promises long-term benefits like reduced pollution, increased energy capacity, and lower costs. Participants also highlight the importance of political will and public awareness in driving these changes. Ultimately, the conversation underscores the urgency of addressing energy issues through innovative and practical solutions.
  • #91
Two things before I am forced to throw a leash (choke chain) around my own thread:

urbsurfer, the things you cited are a combination of hoaxes and conspiracy theories. If you just weren't aware of this, that's fine (and I'd be more than happy to explain any of them), but if you're advocating them, we'll have a problem.

CharlesP, your opinions are just not scientifically sound and your hostile rhetoric/attitude is most unwelcome in the engineering section.

"Peak oil," for example, is not widely accepted by the scientific community. I remember being told in elementary school that we had 20 years of oil left and it wasn't true then either (about 20 years ago). Saying a 10-year lead time (actually, its probably more like 20) is a deal-breaker for nuclear plants is invalid for two reasons: first, the vast majority of that lead-time is political-based red-tape. If we entered a real energy crisis, we'd be much better motivated to build nuclear plants faster. There is no technical reason a plant can't go from drawing board to power-up in 5 years.

Regarding the rhetoric - consider who you are talking to: most of us here are scientists and engineers. Don't you think we should know what we are talking about? I'm not saying this to be insulting, but it seems your opinions and what you consider facts are clouded by your preconceptions.

For example, you say we have "10 years at the most" (before a cataclysmic energy crisis) after citing an article that says we have at least 20. Also, "Peak Oil" isn't even being characterized by its proponents as a cataclysm: its not a sudden running-out of oil, but the peak (as the name implies) of our production.

If you're smart enough to understand what those articles (only the first was free...) are saying, you're smart enough to see that they do not support your position. So which of us is lying? Ignorance doesn't bother me: lying and personal attacks do. Consider carefully, your next post here.
Let me remind you that we few environmentalists... starved a thousand famlies over a spotted owl.
You do realize you're talking about ecoterrorism, right? Its only a small step from there to ELF.
 
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  • #92
CharlesP said:
You better speak softly, I feel a lynch mob coming near.

No, it isn't.

I think you'll find cheap scare tactics do not elicit results in these forums.
 
  • #93
The final oil shock and the futures-market soft landing

russ_watters said:
For example, you say we have "10 years at the most" (before a cataclysmic energy crisis) after citing an article that says we have at least 20. Also, "Peak Oil" isn't even being characterized by its proponents as a cataclysm: its not a sudden running-out of oil, but the peak (as the name implies) of our production.
Peak oil may very well be real and the consequences may be great. Individual automobile owners are not the only users of oil. America's shipping sector has been relying on cheap oil. Moving past the peak of oil production, as it appears that the world is doing right now (and even as China is getting set to dominate world oil consumption) may precipitate dramatic economic shocks.

One way to soften these shocks is for futures markets to raise the current price of oil by speculating on future scarcity/high-demand and high production prices. The benefit of artificially raising current oil prices would be a relatively gentle-but-firm economic pressure encouraging the development of technologies useful for surviving oil scarcity. Futures markets may not be adequately doing that job (i.e., taking future oil scarcity and demand into account, the per-barrel price today should perhaps be several hundred dollars).
 
  • #94
I was just in a "frying pan" group that met all my sorry expectations so you can see where I am coming from. You folks look a bit more professional which is a relief. Still there are many bad signals on the horizon, many are on the ucsusa website.
For oil the turning point criteria is the world wide available oil per capita figure which has peaked long ago, I believe around 1980. In recent years demand and price have risen rapidly. This is already having an adverse impact on the US economy. Similarly heating costs have risen rapidly. If this continues, and there is every reason to believe the pace is quickening, then many folk will see a serious degradation of their living standard. For oil, "runout day" is defined as the time when demand rises faster than supply, and prices rise rapidly. This will be years before the consumption peak.
Although some developments like conservation, hybrid cars, white light LEDs, have had a miniscule effect, I see no development that will interrupt the ominous trend. Further, I can find no cost effective devices available today which I can buy to prepare for the inevitable energy shortage.
Compounding this is the waste problem just one part of which is carbon dioxide. There is a worldwide call for reduction of CO2 emissions because of global warming. The scientific community prevailed on the issue of freon and ozone, and there is no reason to think that they will not prevail in restricting CO2 emissions. That will impact coal. There is an enormous amount of money for anyone who can really impact these problems. I don't see anything happening.
 
  • #95
It is simply ridiculous to assume that people will prefer to die rather than use coal or nuclear power. Assume that very worst scenarios are proven right, like that coal produces an immediate increase in global temperature or there is a nuclear power plant accident or that nuclear waste must contaminate the environment. Even so, if the alternative is the extinction of most of humanity and dramatically reduced living standards, people will choose nuclear or coal.

And increasing prices of energy will automatically reduces use. People will drive less, stay at home during holidays and buy smaller cars. Not to mention possibilities like reducing air conditioning. The industry will avoid transporting by air and trucks and instead use railroads and ships. Flying will become a luxury for those most rich. Better insulation, more efficient lamps and household machinery will reduce home use. Substitutes will be found for the most energy demanding processes and materials in industry. Luxury goods from far away lands like coffee, tee, tropical fruits, chocolate and teak may become rare.
Things like this can greatly reduce energy use without greatly affecting the health of people. And this will happen automatically with higher prices.

It is true that energy demand from the third world is growing. But these countries, like China and India, are also those countries that are right now building out nuclear power. And countries can function perfectly well using mostly nuclear power. France is one example. These countries will gain greatly in the future if those opposed to nuclear manage to slow development in the US or Germany.
http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf17.htm

It is also true that that oil is today necessary for transportation and in agriculture. But it is in transportation that some of the easiest conservations can be made. And biodiesel is rapidly growing and has the potential to handle all the US transportation fuel needs on a very small area. Another possibility is converting coal to transportation fuel:
http://www.unh.edu/p2/biodiesel/article_alge.html
http://www.epa.gov/otaq/consumer/fuels/altfuels/fischer.pdf
 
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  • #96
Aquamarine said:
It is simply ridiculous to assume that people will prefer to die rather than use coal or nuclear power. Assume that very worst scenarios are proven right, like that coal produces an immediate increase in global temperature or there is a nuclear power plant accident or that nuclear waste must contaminate the environment. Even so, if the alternative is the extinction of most of humanity and dramatically reduced living standards, people will choose nuclear or coal.
Global warming has already happened. Living standards have already fallen. It is going to get a lot worse. There are lists of civilian nuclear accidents and near misses too long to read. By the time the energy suffering overcomes the hatred of nukes it will be too late.

Aquamarine said:
And increasing prices of energy will automatically reduces use. People will drive less, stay at home during holidays and buy smaller cars. Not to mention possibilities like reducing air conditioning. The industry will avoid transporting by air and trucks and instead use railroads and ships. Flying will become a luxury for those most rich. Better insulation, more efficient lamps and household machinery will reduce home use. Substitutes will be found for the most energy demanding processes and materials in industry. Luxury goods from far away lands like coffee, tee, tropical fruits, chocolate and teak may become rare.
Things like this can greatly reduce energy use without greatly affecting the health of people. And this will happen automatically with higher prices.
This is the most productive field. There is a long way to go.


Aquamarine said:
It is true that energy demand from the third world is growing. But these countries, like China and India, are also those countries that are right now building out nuclear power. And countries can function perfectly well using mostly nuclear power. France is one example. These countries will gain greatly in the future if those opposed to nuclear manage to slow development in the US or Germany.
http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf17.htm
China is building cars rapidly.

Aquamarine said:
It is also true that that oil is today necessary for transportation and in agriculture. But it is in transportation that some of the easiest conservations can be made. And biodiesel is rapidly growing and has the potential to handle all the US transportation fuel needs on a very small area. Another possibility is converting coal to transportation fuel:
http://www.unh.edu/p2/biodiesel/article_alge.html
http://www.epa.gov/otaq/consumer/fuels/altfuels/fischer.pdf
Biodiesel suffers from enormous startup costs and very low productivity. I won't believe it until it becomes a large profitable business. Government research is the start of such effort not the finish line. Many biologists have said that no such method will work with today's technology.
 
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  • #97
Living standards are increasing worldwide. The percentage of people in poverty living under 1$ per day (PPI adjusted) have halved since 1980.
http://www.worldbank.org/research/povmonitor/

Regarding China and cars, they are at present mostly a luxury. If oil prices raises rapidly as you predict, they will simply remain a luxury for the rich. Similar in other third world countries. Their society is not organized with the assumption that everybody has a car, like the US, and thus that people can live a long distance from work and stores without mass transportation.

Regarding startup costs for biodesel:
In "The Controlled Eutrophication process: Using Microalgae for CO2 Utilization and Agircultural Fertilizer Recycling"3, the authors estimated a cost per hectare of $40,000 for algal ponds. In their model, the algal ponds would be built around the Salton Sea (in the Sonora desert) feeding off of the agircultural waste streams that normally pollute the Salton Sea with over 10,000 tons of nitrogen and phosphate fertilizers each year. The estimate is based on fairly large ponds, 8 hectares in size each. To be conservative (since their estimate is fairly optimistic), we'll arbitrarily increase the cost per hectare by 100% as a margin of safety. That brings the cost per hectare to $80,000. Ponds equivalent to their design could be built around the country, using wastewater streams (human, animal, and agricultural) as feed sources. We found that at NREL's yield rates, 15,000 square miles (3.85 million hectares) of algae ponds would be needed to replace all petroleum transportation fuels with biodiesel. At the cost of $80,000 per hectare, that would work out to roughly $308 billion to build the farms.

The operating costs (including power consumption, labor, chemicals, and fixed capital costs (taxes, maintenance, insurance, depreciation, and return on investment) worked out to $12,000 per hectare. That would equate to $46.2 billion per year for all the algae farms, to yield all the oil feedstock necessary for the entire country. Compare that to the $100-150 billion the US spends each year just on purchasing crude oil from foreign countries, with all of that money leaving the US economy.
I am unsure what you mean with productivity, but read this:
What is the energy efficiency for producing biodiesel? Based on a report by the US DOE and USDA entitled "Life Cycle Inventory of Biodiesel and Petroleum Diesel for Use in an Urban Bus"5, biodiesel produced from soy has an energy balance of 3.2:1. That means that for each unit of energy put into growing the soybeans and turning the soy oil into biodiesel, we get back 3.2 units of energy in the form of biodiesel. That works out to an energy efficiency of 320% (when only looking at fossil energy input - input from the sun, for example, is not included). The reason for the energy efficiency being greater than 100% is that the growing soybeans turn energy from the sun into chemical energy (oil). Current generation diesel engines are 43% efficient (HCCI diesel engines under development, and heavy duty diesel engines have higher efficiencies approaching 55% (better than fuel cells), but for the moment we'll just use current car-sized diesel engine technology). That 3.2 energy balance is for biodiesel made from soybean oil - a rather inefficient crop for the purpose. Other feedstocks such as algaes can yield substantially higher energy balances, as can using thermochemical processes for processing wastes into biofuels (such as the thermal depolymerization process pioneered by Changing World Technologies). Such approaches can yield EROI values ranging from 5-10, potentially even higher.
http://www.unh.edu/p2/biodiesel/article_alge.html

And you are ignoring that fact that coal can be converted to transportation fuel at only slightly higher cost than oil in the ground. The technology for this is already available and in use, see the link in my previous post. Germany used this successfully during WWII to produce most of its transportation fuel at the end of the war. The western world has large coal reserves. If all else should fail and time is of essence, this will be used until other technologies become available or built out.
 
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  • #98
I moved out to Denver at the time of the big coal to gasoline scene. Housing was booming. Shortly after I left the whole thing went bust and housing busted too. They are not going to try anything like that again for a long time.

Those figures didn't look all that inviting to me so I am waiting for someone to go into the business and make it work before I believe.
 
  • #99
Clearly conservation must be part of the strategy.

For example, more efficient use of lighting and heating can contribute to less electrical demand.

More efficient vehicles, especially personal transportation, should be encouraged. It seems that automobile companies would rather build profitable SUV's than cars with more fuel efficiency, because that's what the market demands. On the other hand, the IRS has been offering a $35,000 rebate on Hummers (which cost $106,000) for "business" use - but then one can use them for personal use before and after working hours. The rebates for hybrid cars have been on the order of $1000-$2000. (source: Graydon Carter, "What We've Lost", p. 155-156, 2004).

An increase of 3 miles/gal (mpg) in fuel efficiency could save the US on the order of $25 billion and reduce annual CO2 emissions by 155 million tons. (source: Graydon Carter, "What We've Lost", p. 156, 2004).

To deal with CO2 - plant trees - lots of trees. For every tree I remove from my property (I have to cull diseased trees that were planted too close), I plant one or more. I see a lot of open space that could use some trees. The shade of trees can actually reduce energy costs in the summer time, and provide wind breaks which cut heating costs in winter.

Reforestation in parts of the world, particularly Africa, could significantly reduce CO2 burden, reduce global temperatures, and even increase rainfall in Sahel, Sahara and Arabian Peninsula.

As for nuclear power - new reactor and plants designs are ready to go.

BNFL/Westinghouse
AP-600: http://www.ap600.westinghousenuclear.com/
AP-1000: http://www.ap1000.westinghousenuclear.com/

The AP600 received its final design approval from the U.S. NRC in September 1998, and the design certification in December 1999. The AP-1000 just received its final design approval (FDA) from NRC on Set. 13, 2004

AREVA (Framatome/Siemens) - EPR (European Pressurized water reactor). EdF has announced plans to build the first EPR (a 1600 MWe unit) at Flamanville, in the Basse Normandie region of northern France. Construction would begin in 2007 and would last 5 years with the unit on-line in 2012. TVO has selected the EPR for the third unit at Olkiluoto (http://www.tvo.fi/362.htm)

GE has the Advanced Boiling Water Reactor (ABWR) - The ABWR is the proud recipient of U.S. Standard Design Certification #1, issued on May 2, 1997.
http://npj.goinfo.com/NPJMain.nsf/0/5e5a077946dd6292862569f40079c3cd?OpenDocument
http://www.nuc.berkeley.edu/designs/abwr/abwr.html
Two units, Kashiwazaki-Kariwa 6 and 7, are operating in Japan since 1996 and 1997 respectively, and two units are under construction in Lungmen, Taiwan. http://www.power-technology.com/projects/lungmen/
 
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  • #100
Ocean seeding and CO2 sequestration

Astronuc said:
To deal with CO2 - plant trees
CO2 is reduced mainly by ocean life, not trees. This is why ocean seeding has been explored:
http://www.google.com/search?q=co2+ocean+iron


For dealing with CO2 production from coal plants, Richard Garwin suggests that sequestration might be profitable:
http://216.239.57.104/search?q=cach...f=pd_sim_dp_3/+garwin+sequestration+co2&hl=en

  • The authors first consider the bridging contribution of coal, arguing (p. 232) that CO2 sequestration is certainly feasible at the cost of reducing power-plant net energy output by 30-50%. Coupled with oil+gas decline, sequestration would reduce anthropogenic CO2 generation to levels well below the lowest 2100 projection of the IPCC


The shade of trees can actually reduce energy costs in the summer time, and provide wind breaks which cut heating costs in winter.
Three-foot-thick, steel-reinforced concrete walls might provide similar shading and wind-breaking capacity.



Reforestation in parts of the world, particularly Africa, could
...Provide perhaps a couple of years' worth of firewood for the local inhabitants.
 
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  • #101
GE has the Advanced Boiling Water Reactor (ABWR) - The ABWR is the proud recipient of U.S. Standard Design Certification #1, issued on May 2, 1997.
http://npj.goinfo.com/NPJMain.nsf/0/5e5a077946dd6292862569f40079c3cd?OpenDocument
Interesting that the construction time has only been 3 years in completed units.

More on new reactor types:
http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf08.htm
http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf77.htm
http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf35.htm
http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf33.htm
http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf62.htm

Long term, especially the information on fast neutron reactor (=breeders) is interesting.
About 20 liquid metal-cooled FBRs have already been operating, some since the 1950s, and some supply electricity commercially. About 290 reactor-years of operating experience have been accumulated.

Natural uranium contains about 0.7 % U-235 and 99.3 % U-238. In any reactor the U-238 component is turned into several isotopes of plutonium during its operation. Two of these, Pu-239 and Pu-241, then undergo fission in the same way as U-235 to produce heat. In a fast neutron reactor this process is optimised so that it can 'breed' fuel, often using a depleted uranium blanket around the core. FBRs can utilise uranium at least 60 times more efficiently than a normal reactor. They are however expensive to build and could only be justified economically if uranium prices were to rise to pre-1980 values, about four times the current market price.
Even an increase in uranium price this large will probably affect final energy cost much less, since fuel cost is very small part of final cost. Approximately the fuel cost is 0.30 c/kWh today. 3/4 of that is from enrichment and not from the price of uranium itself. Breeders should make the uranium last 60x longer. And the plants and probably enrichment of tomorrow will be more efficient.

The fuel's contribution to the overall cost of the electricity produced is relatively small, so even a large fuel price escalation will have relatively little effect. For instance, a doubling of the 2002 U3O8 price would increase the fuel cost for a light water reactor by 30% and the electricity cost about 7% (whereas doubling the gas price would add 70% to the price of electricity).
http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf02.htm
 
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  • #102
You know what we need: Superconductors! If be can get the TC of superconductors up to near room temperature then we could drastically increase effecienty in almost everything involving electricity. Car's engines could be up to five times for effencient and several times more powerful. Turbines in dams and other power plants could generate much more power and no power would be loss through power lines!
 
  • #103
Astronuc said:
An increase of 3 gal/mile in fuel efficiency could save the US on the order of $25 billion and reduce annual CO2 emissions by 155 million tons.

Mmmm, I like the way that you have described fuel economy figures in terms of "gallons per mile", rather than the more traditional 'miles per gallon'. :smile:

I'm not sure if you intended this or not, but it's a good point well made. There is absolutely no excuse for the use of SUVs (or as they're known in the UK, 'Chelsea Tractors') in urban environments. Anyone who owns one without just cause (and no, having 3 kids is NOT an excuse, nor is favouring the driving position) should be truly ashamed of themselves.

I realize that they are by no means the largest producer of the gases we are trying to curb, but I think it has to be the first step to turning peoples' attitudes around.

/rant
 
  • #104
brewnog, thanks for pointing out the error. The ratio has been corrected to an increase of 3 miles/gal rather than 3 gal/mile.

As for
Three-foot-thick, steel-reinforced concrete walls might provide similar shading and wind-breaking capacity.

it is much less expensive to plant trees than to erect a reinforced concrete wall three feet think. Imagine the Environmental Impact Study (EIS) that one would have to to. :biggrin:

I maintain that trees are part of the solution. I had an oak tree that was growing at a phenomenal rate of about 1 foot/yr. After 10 years, it was putting on some mass, growing laterally as well as vertically. If that were multiplied by 2E9 trees over an area of 72,000 sq miles, that could handle perhaps anywhere from 10 million to 100 million tons of CO2/yr depending on growth rates. I am also being generous with 1000 sq ft/tree.

The dryland area of the US about 3,537,438.44 sq miles, but perhaps 1/2 is mountainous or urban/suburban so its use for trees would be limited.

The Sahel and Sahara areas have much larger areas that could be reforested. Assuming that increases rainfall those areas, then crops would be more successfully grown.

Use of trees for fuel is not necessary. Solar power (PV or solar dynamic systems) can be used for energy in the Sahel and Sahara, so inhabitants do not need to burn wood. Clearly Africa needs substantial improvements in energy sources and distribution.
 
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  • #105
Aw, I thought it made quite a good point Astronuc, even if it was an error...
 
  • #106
IQ and the trees of Africa

Astronuc said:
it is much less expensive to plant trees than to erect a reinforced concrete wall three feet think.
Trees are dangerous and destroy property. Like other live pets, they require constant supervision and frequent health check-ups. The property damage and the health maintenance of trees are expenses that might make the total ownership costs of concrete walls seem inexpensive in comparison.



I had an oak tree that was growing at a phenomenal rate of about 1 foot/yr.
The average American http://yosemite.epa.gov/oar%5Cglobalwarming.nsf/content/EmissionsInternationalInventory.html . Was your oak tree putting on 20 tons of dry weight per year?



multiplied by 2E9 trees over an area of 72,000 sq miles, that could handle perhaps anywhere from 10 million to 100 million tons of CO2/yr
And, meanwhile, America http://yosemite.epa.gov/oar%5Cglobalwarming.nsf/content/EmissionsInternationalInventory.html . One reason ocean seeding is being explored is that trees are notoriously pathetic at soaking up atmospheric carbon.

[edit: Keep that filth out of my forum, hitssquad. I won't tolerate it. -Russ]
 
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  • #107
Regarding trees, I was actually thinking about areas outside of those with high population density. I have flown over the country numerous times, and there seems to be a lot of open areas that could be reforested.

they [tree] require constant supervision and frequent health check-ups.

Most trees that I see appear to have no human intervention at all. Some trees certainly do become diseased and that is why property owners need to inspect trees, as much as they need to be aware of the condition of the house.

Most of my trees are at a distance from my house that exceeds the height. I have one maple tree that did drop one of is side trunks just behind the house, so I watch is more carefully - it will probably be removed soon. I also had a large spruce tree removed because it overwhelmed the neighbor's driveway.

But it seems high winds or stormy weather is the culprit. If trees were not around, the storm winds would directly affect the house, and high winds can do significant damage to a house.

If one was going to the expense of a 3-foot (1 meter) thick concrete wall, then it would be worthwhile to build the exterior wall structure of the house in this manner. Then surround the house with trees to shade it and provide a wind break. We have a lot of birds around our property, and it is very nice to listen to them and watch them.

Sitting by the window looking out, I thought today, that it would not be much of a view staring at a concrete wall. BTW, a concrete wall would get quite hot in the summer. Metropolitan areas are usually 4-5°C (so-called urban or metropolitan heat island effect).

Based on the stats that you provided, certainly trees are not the total solution, only part of it. Clearly energy conservation is a necessary part. Reduction of fossil fuel (coal and oil) is necessary. Part of that should be a significant improvement in vehicular mileage.

hittsquad - Thanks for the links on ocean seeding. I will definitely look into that. But is it practical (even if feasible) to put 5.5 billion tons of CO2 into the oceans each year? Is that something in which you are involved?

I just started researching "carbon sequestration" area, so I am still learning about it.
 
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  • #108
Energy News Update

Energy efforts close to starting

State program will help fund solar, wind farm projects

By JOHN G. EDWARDS
REVIEW-JOURNAL

Two developers said Friday they are getting closer to beginning construction on separate alternate energy projects that will take advantage of a new state program.

Developers of Solargenix Energy, a planned 50-megawatt solar thermal project in the Eldorado Valley, and Ely Wind, a proposed 50-megawatt wind farm in Northern Nevada, have applied for approval under a new state program that makes it easier for them to get financing.

Solargenix hopes to obtain financing by March and start construction of the solar thermal plant, said Gary Bailey, a local executive with the company. The facility will use troughs that reflect sunlight and heat on to a fluid-filled pipe that will spin a turbine to generate power. [continued with more information and listed projects]
http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2004/Nov-27-Sat-2004/business/25354555.html
 
  • #109
Here is another very interesting new technology. If it works out as planned, if will produce oil from almost all sorts of wastes containing hydrocarbons, like sewage, plastics or paper. And at the same time also reduce the amount of waste that needs to be stored and also degrading many dangerous substances.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_depolymerization
 
  • #110
I offer a fowl solution

Turkey droppings fuel power plant

NEW YORK (Reuters) -- Turkey leftovers will take on a whole new use after a Minnesota company finishes construction of a power plant fired by the birds' droppings. [continued]
http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/science/12/16/energy.environment.turkeys.reut/index.html
 
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  • #111
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  • #112
... The fuel cost the Tabbs' $4.02 per gallon, but the business will be able to take advantage of a federal tax credit beginning Jan. 1.

The tax credit may not necessarily make the fuel cheaper than petroleum-based diesel, according to National Biodiesel Board communications director Jenna Higgins.

"We do know it will do a lot to close the gap," she said. The tax credit was included in job-creation legislation signed into law in October.

Higgins could not offer how prevalent Biodiesel had become nationwide, but cited statistics by the U.S. Department of Energy that indicate the alternative fuel was among the fastest growing.

"We estimate that 31 percent of soybean farmers use biodiesel and that number continues to go up," Higgins sad.

"Enthusiasm for biodiesel fuel is contagious," [continued]
http://www.journal-news.net/news/story/1218202004_new01_fuel_121804_n.asp
 
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  • #113
Nuclear-blast resistant homes, and the trees that bravely protect them

Astronuc said:
If trees were not around, the storm winds would directly affect the house, and high winds can do significant damage to a house.
If a house cannot withstand predictable wind speeds, it might seem there is something wrong with the design of, or the construction technique used in the building of, the house:
http://www.garylukens.com/steel_frame_homes.htm

  • More structurally stable and stronger than wood framed homes and safer in high winds and other natural disasters.[/color]

    The steel framed wall panel used in our construction is the strongest design engineered. This design withstands racking of the structure in winds of excess of 150 mph.


If one was going to the expense of a 3-foot (1 meter) thick concrete wall, then it would be worthwhile to build the exterior wall structure of the house in this manner.
Agreed. A concrete dome capping a concrete-lined subterranian space might be just the ticket for blast protection in case of nuclear attack.



Then surround the house with trees to shade it and provide a wind break.
?

The proposed house is made out of thick, steel-reinforced concrete.



it would not be much of a view staring at a concrete wall.
Computer monitors can be used for viewing. Audio speakers can be used for listening. Birds and trees can be computer-simulated, or live video cameras feeding back to the house can be set up where there are live birds and trees. If you would like to add a babbling brook to the scene, it is merely a few keystrokes or mouse-clicks away.



BTW, a concrete wall would get quite hot in the summer.
Perhaps it would not be hot on the inside. This concrete is pretty thick. It might be like living inside a cave (except this cave has as many windows as you are willing to add video monitors.)



solution... Clearly energy conservation is a necessary part.
It would seem that qualification and quantification might be needed in order to be able to reach conclusions.



Reduction of fossil fuel (coal and oil) is necessary. Part of that should be a significant improvement in vehicular mileage.
Again, adequate qualification and quantification seems to be lacking.
 
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  • #114
I just built a house with a full dug out basement lined with 12 inch cinder block. I estimate that the basement if 1000 square feet added $100,000 to the cost of the house. I don't think too many folks have an extra $100,000 to waste. Economically it was a mistake. But it is a fine engineering test bed.
 
  • #115
Is saving money by building wood houses really saving money

Economics in action, Charles:
http://www.aero-data.com/anaglyphs/hurricane_damage_fixed.jpg

How much is a blown-down house worth? How much is a house with a car embedded in its livingroom worth?
http://www.google.com/search?q=car+livingroom+crash



CharlesP said:
I don't think too many folks have an extra $100,000 to waste.
The average American male makes 2.5 million year-2000 dollars in his lifetime and wastes much of that on luxuries such as cars that can go three times the maximum speed limit, low-brow entertainment, jewelry, dysfunctional clothing, mountains of poisonous "food", glorified 18th-century "health care", preventable "accidents", low-brow weddings, divorces from spouses that simple psychological tests would have told them they should not have married, low-brow funerals, etc. On a $2.5 million lifetime income, I think a person can cut back on a few of those things and afford to build a $500,000 high-security home.

And if it's dug into the ground, you can save a little on energy costs, too. An underground house is passively geothermal.
http://www.kettler.com/geot.html


The Heat Beneath Your Feet[/color][/size]

Geothermal energy, the heat beneath your feet, is the most stable renewable energy source. Three feet below most of the eartth's surface, the ground temperature is always at least a mild 50 degrees F., and this temperature increases with depth to several hundred degrees.
 
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  • #116
hitssquad said:
Is saving money by building wood houses really saving money
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I think that you might find it interesting that steel framed and concrete structures, when built serially (not one-off) and by well qualified personnel, are generally more economical than the general 'stick-built' wood framed houses. The materials for steel or masonry houses generally cost more, but the labor costs are generally considerably lower. Cutting, recutting, measuring, force-fitting, etc. are greatly reduced, for example. Cost of construction isn't the big problem. That problem is:

Tradition! - - - Tradition!

More in general, a certain very influential segment of the American populace wants nothing other than a home that buys into the perceived American (sometimes European) tradition of what a proper house should be. That segment, in particular is heavily represented in the lower middle-class WASP female populace. (This has been borne-out in studies in the past.) This preference is basically a way of buying into this perceived tradition. Convince this very large group that the 'stick-built' house isn't preferable and you can quickly and at no extra cost, start to improve America's energy consumption picture. Fail to convince this group, and we muddle on.
 
  • #117
hitssquad said:
And if it's dug into the ground, you can save a little on energy costs, too. An underground house is passively geothermal.


Actually, we can save a lot this way. The average temperature a few feet below ground surface, in most climates, averages near sixty degrees year-round. (This is what makes underground homes so attractive to some people.) Masonry houses (brick, block and especially concrete), however also have other properties that make them attractive in this situation (and a few problems). The main advantages, other than structural strength, are those of thermal 'flywheel' and thermal 'wick'. It is well known that masonry tends to hold onto temperature values much better than most building materials. What is less well known is a little discovery made a few years ago by a builder in the US Southwest, that by anchoring a masonry foundation well into the ground, and then insulating this masonry structure on the 'outside', temperatures on the inside can be easily and economically stabilized and maintained year-round. (And, the house itself doesn't have to be underground.)

The drawback to this is the fact that, because masonry is generally cooler than the hot outside air (in summer); when this outside air comes in contact, it tends to dump a lot of its absorbed moisture onto the colder masonry walls. As result, basements are often wet and moldy, especially in the more humid areas.

KM
 
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  • #118
hitssquad said:
Quote:
BTW, a concrete wall would get quite hot in the summer.
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Perhaps it would not be hot on the inside. This concrete is pretty thick. It might be like living inside a cave (except this cave has as many windows as you are willing to add video monitors.)

There's no reason to assume that concrete will be hotter in Summer than other materials. Actually, it tends to be cooler in Summer and warmer in Winter (thermal, Flywheeling - very similar to water, and the wicking effect). This is why basement walls tend to be cool (and thus damp) in the Summer.

KM
 
  • #119
[QUOTE+Astronuc] The Sahel and Sahara areas have much larger areas that could be reforested. Assuming that increases rainfall those areas, then crops would be more successfully grown. [/QUOTE]

It must be borne in mind that the Sahara, at least, was once somewhere between fairly lush, and a savannah area (I believe, as recently as about seven or eight thousand years ago). If so, then before trying to change it from what it is Today, we must ask, "what changed it to this state?" If the cause was in nature, then just maybe we can determine and implement what will be required to restore it, and maybe not. If we find out what is required, maybe it will be economically and politically feasible, and maybe not. The frightening thought, though is - - "What if we caused it in some way?". I suspect that the cause was natural but we could have been the culprit, and if so, we'll probably never be able to bring ourselves to correct it (even if we can). We apparently did cause the heavily forested areas of Lebanon to vanish, and we don't have the faintest idea what we must do to correct the situation there. In like manner, much of Michigan was once heavily forested, and we destroyed most of that. (Will that some day become a desert?) We definitely seem to know how to destroy forests, but not necessarily how to rebuild them (especially the old growth types). Now we are working to destroy the rainforests of the Equatorial regions and this will probably influence the world's rainfall patterns in catastrophic ways. (The reason that this isn't raising great alarms around the world, may possibly be the fact that it isn't predominantly the evil Americans that are doing it, but who rather stand to suffer the consequences if it continues, especially in the Western Pacific. Destruction of the South American rain forests will have similar effects on Europe.)
I, personally have little faith in our will or abilities to create forests. I just hope that we don't destroy more of them.
[QUOTE+Astronuc] Regarding trees, I was actually thinking about areas outside of those with high population density. I have flown over the country numerous times, and there seems to be a lot of open areas that could be reforested.[/QUOTE]

Good luck!


[QUOTE+Astronuc] If one was going to the expense of a 3-foot (1 meter) thick concrete wall, then it would be worthwhile to build the exterior wall structure of the house in this manner. Then surround the house with trees to shade it and provide a wind break. We have a lot of birds around our property, and it is very nice to listen to them and watch them.[/QUOTE]

One added suggestion here. Where possible, plant evergreens (softwoods) to the North and West. This will help to block out the winds and snow in the Winter. On the other hand, put the deciduous trees (hardwoods) to the South. In this way you can help to block out direct sunlight in the Summer, while allowing it to come through in Winter.

KM
 
  • #120
Late to the party here but a few points:

(1) There are multiple energy markets that are currently only tangentially linked.
(2) There are muliple environmental, cost, supply and safety concerns.

Supply

Let's look at the supply issue first. There is no doubt that the supply of fossil fuels is finite. There is no doubt that demand for fossil fuels is poised to increase rapidly as nations like China industrialize. There is no doubt that a limited supply and an inceased demand will increase fossil fuel energy prices in the long run. Technology is going to make more fossil fuels available as prices increase making more expensive to exploit resources more attractive, but the long term trend is still fossil fuel prices going up.

You can argue over whether it will take ten years, twenty years, forty years or eighty years to get there, but an economy that relies on fossil fuels is unsustainable in the long term.

There is also not serious dispute about the fact that the most scarce of the fossil fuels is petroleum, and that the second most scarce of the fossil fuels in natural gas (in both cases relative to current use), while coal, and the non-renewable non-fossil fuel of uranium, are less scarce than natural gas given current useage patterns.

It should also be obvious that our oil supply is highly subject to geopolitical risk. Choosing to exploit oil fields in Alaska may put off the day of reckoning a few years, but the key point is that most of the reserves of oil in the world lie outside the United States in places like the Middle East, Nigeria and Venezula which are not politically stable. (Lots of the world's uranium resources are also located in regions where political stability is lacking).

Multiple Markets

The transporation fuel market, which relies almost exclusively upon petroleum products as an energy source right now, is almost entirely separate from the other demands on our energy supply (i.e. electricity, industrial use, residential and commercial use).

The Non-Transportation Market

The fact that a variety of fuels can be used in the non-transporation market has let to price competition and lots of options to address that part of the energy market. Electricity can be produced using current technology with hydroelectric power, wind power, solar power, coal, natural gas, petroleum, biofuels and waste products, geothermal power, etc.

Petroleum is the least used fuel for heating buildings like homes and businesses in the nation. Industrial users are actively trying to reduce their petroleum use due to environmental and cost concerns. Very little electricity is produced with petroleum and much of that is in isolated areas like Hawaii and rural Alaska where there is no cheap way to transport coal or natural gas and there are insufficient local hydroelectric resources.

Natural gas is primarily used for water heating and heating buildings. It is a versatile fuel which can be used in modified vehicles for transporation, which can be used to generate peak demand electricity (it is expensive as a base electricity fuel), and can be used in industrial use. But, leaving oil for natural gas puts pressure on the natural gas supply (and those of you who heat your homes with gas know that those prices do from time to time go through the roof). Natural gas is the least polluting fossil fuel and can be clean and efficient even in small scale applications (like a home water heater).

There are rooms for significant conservation measures in the non-transportation sector. Better insulated houses and more efficient water heating systems can greatly reduce demand for energy in those areas and the market is likely to make this happen as prices for natural gas (or the main alternative electricity) rise.

There is really no danger of "running out" of energy for the non-transporation section in the near term. Even we knew for a fact that all natural gas supplies would be gone in ten years (and no one is claiming that they will be), electricity could replace every major use of natural gas with no technological advances and fairly modest infrastructure costs as almost all buildings are already wired for electricity. Natural gas is preferred over electricity simply because it is less expensive (outside uses like cooking and artificial fireplaces with are a tiny fraction of the total natural gas consumption of the nation and would still persist even if natural gas prices went up ten fold or a hundred fold).

In the non-transportation sector, thus, environmental, cost and safety concerns are predominant. The main environmental issue in the non-transportation section is that coal fired electricity plants cause significant air pollution and that the mining (mostly strip mining) to burning process for coal also generates significant solid waste and has significant environmental impacts.

Basically, then, anything that is more environmentally attractive than coal is a good idea if it can be done at a manageable cost and with greater or equal safety. Nuclear fission meets this test (particularly with breeder reactors). Wind power meets this test. Photovoltaic power is close to meeting this test for summer daytime peak useage in the sunbelt (i.e. to power air conditioning). Hydroelectric power meets this test but has already been heavily exploited, and geothermal power availability is highly localized. Conservation schemes also abound. Better insultation is the most basic, and solar power is quite efficient at reducing the need to heat water with other fuels (water heating and not photovoltaic applications are the main current commercial use of solar power now). Co-generation plants that use heat directly as well as generating electricity for steam plants in urban or industrial areas are highly efficient. This list is not exhaustive.

In short, the non-transportation section is not in a crisis, and has numerous possible solutions that modest policy nudges to encourage could easily put on a fast track. A simple "carbon tax" on fossil fuel emissions, for example, could easily create the incentive to encourage change while funding research into conservation and alternative sources without unduly tinkering with market mechanisms in this sector.

The Transportation Market

The real problem is in the transportation area. The options for reducing pollution are fewer (and the pollution from this type of energy use is significant), the likelihood of supply being a problem is greater (not actually running out, but seeing prices rise, particularly as China and other developing nations increase their demand while supplies don't get dramatically greater), and the amount of effort needed to adapt to new technologies is greater.

Air

Air transportation will simply have to get more expensive. There is no good alternative for powering a jet to petroleum products, this is a very small part of the total demand (probably under 1%), and this is the highest value petroleum use in the transportation section.

Of course, as air transportation gets mor expensive, passenger rail becomes more attractive for medium distance, budget conscious passengers, indirectly reducing demand in this section.

Rail

One of the best ways energy use in the transportation sector can be reduced is with increased use of rail. Freight rail already is fully converted to diesel-electric hybrid power systems of the type just beggining to appear in passenger cars like the Prius. They are many times less polluting and more fuel efficient and less costly than moving freight by truck with no new technology at all. Shifting more long haul freight to rail, with trucks making deliveries locally, to and from the train station, could dramatically reduce transportation sourced air pollution and petroleum demands.

It does require a new business model and technology, with a focus on containerizing cargo. It would also benefit from modest efforts to increase the speed of freight rail -- not to the 190 mph of the TGV in France for passenger rail, but another 5-10 mph above current norms. Mostly though, it would require much more efficient technology to move containers carried by rail off trains and onto trucks (and visa versa). But, this is a far easier task than creating a hydrogen economy, developing viable fusion power, or a host of other far more commonly discussed sexier energy conservation proposals. Simply removing the government subsidies that favor road over rail (users bear only about 40% of the cost of the road system through gas and other transportatio related taxes, with the rest coming from general revenue taxes mostly at the state and local level) and penalizing trucks that fail to meet the same emissions standards of other parts of the energy use economy would go a long way towards securing this switch.

We also need to look more intelligently at passenger rail to see where it makes sense and where it does not. Passenger rail at an average of about 35 mph over vast rural areas of the interior United States, which is mostly what Amtrack does outside the Northeast Corridor, is idiotic and exists only due to massive per passenger government subsidies. This is better terminated to allow intercity buses (which still beat cars in environmental and safety respects) become more economically viable.

But, passenger rail at 90-190 mph at medium intercity distances (i.e. before the speed advantages of air travel become overwhelming) in high density corridors between urbanized areas (e.g. the California coast, the Northeast Corridor, the Front Range of Colorado, the major cities of Texas, the major cities of Ohio) can make lots of sense. Also, because high speed rail systems are typically in urban areas close to power plants and operate on fixed routes, electricity is often a good energy source for them so the burden on the petroleum supply can be alleviated and shifted to the less crisis prone non-transportation energy sector. The rest of the developed world (Western Europe and Japan) makes wide use of high speed rail in these conditions.

As long as we don't try to use passenger rail to connect small towns in Nebraska, as we do now, it can be a good part of the solution.

Roads

In the near term future, hybrid drives are the best way to reduce petroleum consumption for cars and trucks. They work well at scales from subcompacts to big rigs (keep in mind that our nation's train system already has used this technology for decades, and it has also been tested in Hummer's and SUVs, as well as the more familiar Toyota Prius). It has all the performance of a conventional vehicle, is less polluting, is more fuel efficient, requires no new infrastructure and has a modest price differential which is partially simply a function of economies of scale.

A near complete conversion to hybrid technology could reduce petroleum consmption by 20-30%.

The easiest way to boost hybrid drive technology would be to shift funding for the road system from general taxes to gasoline taxes, which might incease gas prices by 50 cents to $1 a gallon, which creates an incentive of something on the order of $250 per mile per gallon of fuel efficiency improvement, enough to make hybrid drive technology look good.

Along with hybrid drive technology, we also need to look at ways to make diesel engines cleaner burning (e.g. by removing sulfur so we can use more emissions cleaning technology at the tailpipe) so that this more fuel efficient fuel source can leverage the benefits associated with hybrid drive.

A hybrid drive diesel is even more fuel efficient than a hybrid drive gasoline engine, but produces more of certain kinds of pollutants due to a dearth of regulation of those pollution sources so far. Modest emissions regulations for diesel could make this a real good option for reducing petroleum dependency.

In the longer term, we need to think about reducing the sprawl that makes universal use of cars and trucks to do anything necessary, through better land use, and we need to look at wider use of fully electric cars.

Fully electric cars are already viable for intra-city use. They also perform just like a regular car. But, they have shorter range and take a long time to recharge (even though a plug in your garage or at your workplace parking spot is all that is required). This makes them unattractive for anyone who every makes long range trips, as most people buy vehicles for peak use (hence the trend of single individuals driving to work in huge SUVs).

The peak use purchase syndrome for both SUVs and as a discouraging trend for electric cars can be addressed by making the rental car market work better and reducing subsidies and regulatory biases in favor of big, polluting vehicles. Why own an SUV or full cab pickup you only use the full abilities of, when it is quick and easy to rent one for the weekened, at a fraction of the price. A little nudge and attitude adjustment here could have a big impact. For example, why not sell smaller cars and sedans bundled with a voucher for ten days of year of SUV or pickup rentals?

The technological barrier for fully electric cars is batteries. The rest of the technology is proven, works great, and explains why hybrid cars provide an advantage even now. But, batteries are expensive, have lots of toxic elements, and don't have a high enough energy density, among other problems.

R&D efforts towards better batteries should be one of the biggest priorites in the nation, far ahead of nuclear fusion (which even if discovered would only solve a crisis we don't have), other other long shot efforts. It doesn't take a scientific revolution. Improvements of degree make electric cars and trucks more and more attractive. And, once you have viable electric cars and trucks (even if you need petroleum for rural areas, just as we use it in those areas for electricity generation now) that can get widespread use in urban areas, we have largely solved the problems associated with petroleum and can address the source energy pollution problem with the variety of non-transportation section options discussed above.
 
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