I Young's slit experiment with single photons

  • #51
Marilyn67 said:
But we can imagine a much shorter triangle, and observe smaller interfringes i thanks to the equivalent of a microscope (ok it's more complicated, but a path difference less than the wavelength is not "fundamentally necessary", or is there another reason ?)
The real world is much more complicated than the idealized two slits in a plane. In fact there are interferences from different numbers of wavelengths ("orders" of diffraction) that are more and more difficult to capture because they are typically finer detail. In fact an arbitrary object when illuminated appropriately will produce a very very complicated pattern of interferences on all scales. This is a hologram !
 
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  • #52
Thanks @tech99 for your very concise answer.

It's still instructive today to know how we did in the good old days and with hindsight, it gives good ideas for tomorrow !

Cordially,
Marilyn
 
  • #53
If you are looking for something to help you visualize single-photon interference in the double slit experiment, consider the following model. Imagine each possible state of the experiment's photon exists in a different world. So, in one world the photon traces a certain path to the detector, while in other worlds it traces a different path. Next, apply the uncertainty principle, which tells us that prior to observation we cannot be sure exactly which path a given photon will take, or in this model, exactly which world that photon occupies. When the experiment is performed, such uncertainty means each individual photon is not confined to anyone particular world, and thus is free to interact with other photons, the ones in other states/worlds, thus causing each individual photon's landing location to indicate interference has occurred.
 
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  • #54
oknow said:
If you are looking for something to help you visualize single-photon interference in the double slit experiment, consider the following model. Imagine each possible state of the experiment's photon exists in a different world. So, in one world the photon traces a certain path to the detector, while in other worlds it traces a different path. Next, apply the uncertainty principle, which tells us that prior to observation we cannot be sure exactly which path a given photon will take, or in this model, exactly which world that photon occupies. When the experiment is performed, such uncertainty means each individual photon is not confined to anyone particular world, and thus is free to interact with other photons, the ones in other states/worlds, thus causing each individual photon's landing location to indicate interference has occurred.
That sounds like hocus pocus to me!
 
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  • #55
oknow said:
consider the following model
Do you have a reference for this model? Or is it just your personal speculation? Personal speculations are off limits here.

oknow said:
Imagine each possible state of the experiment's photon exists in a different world
This sounds somewhat like the Many Worlds Interpretation--which would, in itself, mean it is off limits in this particular thread, because discussions of particular QM interpretations belong in the interpretations subforum, not this one, and this thread is about a question in the context of basic QM without adopting any particular interpretation.

However, the resemblance is only "somewhat", since in the MWI, different "worlds" refers to different decoherent branches of the wave function. The parts of the wave function that refer to the photon going through different slits are not different decoherent branches, so they are not different "worlds" in the sense of the MWI. (The fact that the different parts of the wave function can "interact", combining to produce the final probability amplitudes at the detector, also means they aren't different "worlds" in the sense of the MWI, since different "worlds" in the MWI cannot interact.)
 
  • #56
It's much simpler. A single photon is still a certain state of an electromagnetic field (one-photon Fock state) and thus describes a wave, and in the double-slit experiment there's interference between the partial waves moving through either slit, which makes the interference pattern.

It's, however, different from the classical electromagnetic waves (which are quantum-field-theoretically described by so-called coherent states, which are other states of the electromagnetic field which do not have a specified number of photons; the photon number in a single-mode coherent state is Poisson distributed). A single-photon state means that you can only detect strictly one photon by, e.g., using the photo effect in the detector material, leading to absorption of this one photon and kicking out an electron, which can be used as a signal to detect the photon at the place of the detector. The meaning of the electromagnetic wave for a single photon is the probability distribution for detecting a photon at a given place and is identical with the intensity of this em. wave (i.e., the energy density), properly normalized such that the probabilities sum to 1.
 
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  • #57
I was referring to the explanation of the miwoi model (a combination of Many Worlds and Uncertainty Principle). It's deceptively simple, yet is also consistent with other things quantum such as tunneling, Ehrenfest's theorem, zero-point energy, and more. The model's prediction that matter's gravitational field changes slightly upon decoherence subsequently gained support from the recent observation of such in colliding galaxies. This hints at a quantum role in dark matter/energy.
 
  • #58
This might not be responsive, but one thought after reading your first post @Marilyn67 - My understanding is that if there is no measurement, no wave collapse, then the way to think about it is the PROBABILITY WAVES of that single particle (not yet collapsed) go through both slits. It is those waves that interfere (or reinforce) each other as they interact on the other side of the slits.

Making one slit closer or further away will affect the interference pattern, but it will still be there (in absence of measurement).
 
  • #59
A different way to say the same thing - before collapse, the particle is still a wave, and that wave will take every possible path it can, as a wave. The wave taking those different paths is causing the interference.
Question for someone: if you remove one slit, so you have a single slit, will an interference pattern be shown? I could have sworn I read somewhere that it would still show up, but that would not make sense to me. How could there be interference where the wave could take only one possible path?
 
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  • #60
HomesliceMMA said:
Question for someone: if you remove one slit, so you have a single slit, will an interference pattern be shown?
Yes. The single-slit diffraction pattern is caused by interference of waves that pass through different parts of the slit, across its width.

[added] The general two-slit diffraction pattern combines the effects of interference between the two slits, and interference between the different parts of each slit.

As the slits become narrower, while keeping them the same distance apart, the central maximum of the single-slit pattern spreads out and eventually fills the "field of view" so that you see only the classic two-slit interference pattern.

Note the scales are different in the two two-slit patterns linked above. If the slits have the same separation in the two patterns (with only their width being different), the peaks in the two-slit interference pattern are the same width as the narrow peaks in the two-slit diffraction pattern.
 
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  • #61
One can save a lot of confusion when stating right from the beginning that a "quantum" is described by quantum theory, and they have neither classical particle nor classical wave properties. There's also no wave-particle dualism, which was part of the socalled "old quantum theory", which was indeed very confusing, because it was not a self-consistent theory for the behavior of matter. Modern quantum theory resolves all these quibbles by the probabilistic interpretation of the quantum state a la Born.

In addition the most flexible formulation of (many-body) quantum theory for both the non-relativistic and the relativistic theory is the quantum-field theoretical formulation (often called "2nd quantization", although there's only one quantum theory, and for non-relativistic QT there's a "1st-quantization formalism" at best applicable in some non-relativistic limit). Accordingly you are usually better off when thinking in terms of field theories/waves when thinking about a situation in a heuristic way.
 
  • #62
HomesliceMMA said:
A different way to say the same thing - before collapse, the particle is still a wave….
And it is a wave after collapse too, just a different one - that’s why we can get interference even in the single-slit case, as explained by @jtbell in post #60.

The idea that sometimes it’s a particle and sometimes it’s a wave, that the wave turns into a particle when the wave function collapses….These ideas were discarded almost a century ago when the modern theory of quantum mechanics was developed. They are stuff that you are going to have to unlearn.
 
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  • #63
Hello @jtbell,

jtbell said:
Yes. The single-slit diffraction pattern is caused by interference of waves that pass through different parts of the slit, across its width.

[added] The general two-slit diffraction pattern combines the effects of interference between the two slits, and interference between the different parts of each slit.

As the slits become narrower, while keeping them the same distance apart, the central maximum of the single-slit pattern spreads out and eventually fills the "field of view" so that you see only the classic two-slit interference pattern.

Note the scales are different in the two two-slit patterns linked above. If the slits have the same separation in the two patterns (with only their width being different), the peaks in the two-slit interference pattern are the same width as the narrow peaks in the two-slit diffraction pattern.

Your answer is really very instructive and well argued.
Thank you for your link to this site which is a gold mine of information !

The question concerning the possibility of observing interference by closing the second slit was therefore relevant !
I realize that in popularization, to say that closing a slit makes the interference fringes disappear is an "abuse of language" :

In fact, what disappears is the previous interference pattern (with small inter-fringes), and it gives way to another interference pattern, on a larger scale, a scale so large that this pattern can go unnoticed if it isn't observed correctly, in particular the central fringe which looks deceptively like the classic diffuse pattern if it isn't observed with good precision !

It's very interesting, and it leads me directly to the corollary with the MZI mentioned in my message #20, where we observe an interference pattern on a screen (thanks to lenses) on each side of the quantum eraser when the two paths are taken without observing "which path" is taken.

You guess my question :

Transposed to the MZI, does the phenomenon described in Young's slits (1 closed slit) have its equivalent if one of the two paths of the MZI is closed ?

Is there really no interference on either side of the quantum eraser if one arm is blocked, or does a comparable phenomenon occur with interferences on another scale, which can go unnoticed ?

In advance, thank you for your response.

Cordially,
Marilyn
 
  • #64
Marilyn67 said:
In fact, what disappears is the previous interference pattern (with small inter-fringes), and it gives way to another interference pattern, on a larger scale, a scale so large that this pattern can go unnoticed if it isn't observed correctly, in particular the central fringe which looks deceptively like the classic diffuse pattern if it isn't observed with good precision !
I've demonstrated this many times in undergraduate laboratories, by placing two slits in the path of a laser beam (which produces the two-slit diffraction pattern), then carefully sliding a sharp edge like a razor blade behind one of the slits, leaving the other one open. The gaps between the narrow interference peaks "fill in", leaving the broad diffraction pattern.

I've just now remembered that the site where I got my links has a side-by-side illustration on a different page.
 
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  • #65
Nugatory said:
And it is a wave after collapse too, just a different one - that’s why we can get interference even in the single-slit case, as explained by @jtbell in post #60.

The idea that sometimes it’s a particle and sometimes it’s a wave, that the wave turns into a particle when the wave function collapses….These ideas were discarded almost a century ago when the modern theory of quantum mechanics was developed. They are stuff that you are going to have to unlearn.
Thank you jtbell for your explanation (still trying to understand the part you added) and thank you Nugatory! But Nugatory, you said:

"The idea that sometimes it’s a particle and sometimes it’s a wave, that the wave turns into a particle when the wave function collapses….These ideas were discarded almost a century ago when the modern theory of quantum mechanics was developed. They are stuff that you are going to have to unlearn."

So wait a sec, what am I going to have to unlearn? I mean, its always a particle, but is it not initially a wave, which, upon a measurement or other sufficient disturbance (which is still a gray area), show up as a discrete particle somewhere, based on its probability wave? What part of that is not consistent with current thinking?

Thanks guys!!!
 
  • #66
HomesliceMMA said:
its always a particle
No, it isn't. That's one of the things you need to unlearn. Quantum objects aren't particles and they aren't waves; they are quantum objects. Some aspects of their behavior are similar to the behavior of particles, and other aspects are similar to the behavior of waves. But they are not particles or waves.
 
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  • #67
jtbell said:
Yes. The single-slit diffraction pattern is caused by interference of waves that pass through different parts of the slit, across its width.

[added] The general two-slit diffraction pattern combines the effects of interference between the two slits, and interference between the different parts of each slit.

As the slits become narrower, while keeping them the same distance apart, the central maximum of the single-slit pattern spreads out and eventually fills the "field of view" so that you see only the classic two-slit interference pattern.

Note the scales are different in the two two-slit patterns linked above. If the slits have the same separation in the two patterns (with only their width being different), the peaks in the two-slit interference pattern are the same width as the narrow peaks in the two-slit diffraction pattern.
jtbell, when you say:

"As the slits become narrower, while keeping them the same distance apart, the central maximum of the single-slit pattern spreads out and eventually fills the "field of view" so that you see only the classic two-slit interference pattern."

That sounds weird to me. What is going on there? I would have thought as you narrow the slit in a single-slit test, the interference pattern would get a little bit narrower. I.E. you are narrowing the path the wave can take through the slit, so the interference pattern should shrink. Maybe not go away, since its a wave, but shrink consistent with the slit shrinking. Are you say it actually broadens as you narrow the slit?

Thanks again!!!
 
  • #68
PeterDonis said:
No, it isn't. That's one of the things you need to unlearn. Quantum objects aren't particles and they aren't waves; they are quantum objects. Some aspects of their behavior are similar to the behavior of particles, and other aspects are similar to the behavior of waves. But they are not particles or waves.

Are we talking semantics here? If they are not "particles" or "waves", is it true to say they "act as" particles or waves (after and before a decoherence event or whatever it is called, respectively)? Or is even that wrong? If that is right, is there really any difference, other than semantics, between the two vernaculars?

Thanks!
 
  • #69
HomesliceMMA said:
Are we talking semantics here?
No, we are correcting a common misconception. "Particle" and "wave" are classical concepts. Quantum objects are not classical. You can't expect classical concepts to apply to them.

HomesliceMMA said:
is it true to say they "act as" particles or waves
If you just want to point at particular aspects of experimental results that look like particle or wave behavior, yes, you can say that. But any such statements will be limited.

HomesliceMMA said:
is there really any difference, other than semantics, between the two vernaculars?
Yes: thinking of quantum objects as particles, or waves, or "waves that sometimes turn into particles", will mean you end up getting wrong answers. (You give an example of this in post #67.) If you really want to learn the right answers, you have to stop thinking of quantum objects as particles or waves or any other classical concept, and learn the theory, quantum mechanics, that makes accurate predictions about what these quantum objects actually do.
 
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  • #70
PeterDonis said:
No, we are correcting a common misconception. "Particle" and "wave" are classical concepts. Quantum objects are not classical. You can't expect classical concepts to apply to them.If you just want to point at particular aspects of experimental results that look like particle or wave behavior, yes, you can say that. But any such statements will be limited.Yes: thinking of quantum objects as particles, or waves, or "waves that sometimes turn into particles", will mean you end up getting wrong answers. (You give an example of this in post #67.) If you really want to learn the right answers, you have to stop thinking of quantum objects as particles or waves or any other classical concept, and learn the theory, quantum mechanics, that makes accurate predictions about what these quantum objects actually do.

Understood (I think) PeterDonis, just trying to learn! So would a more/less correct statement be: Things we think of as photons and electrons (and I guess any classical "elementary particles" and maybe any other mass in classical sense?) is neither a particle nor a wave, but behaves either as a wave (before a decoherence event or whatever its called) or as a particle (after a decoherence event)? Something like that?

Thank you!
 
  • #71
HomesliceMMA said:
would a more/less correct statement be: Things we think of as photons and electrons (and I guess any classical "elementary particles" and maybe any other mass in classical sense?) is neither a particle nor a wave
Yes.

HomesliceMMA said:
but behaves either as a wave (before a decoherence event or whatever its called) or as a particle (after a decoherence event)?
No. Again, this kind of reasoning will lead you to wrong answers (for example, in post #67).
 
  • #72
PeterDonis, you have officially blown my mind LOL. Can you explain how that second part is wrong? It does not behave like a wave before the measurement in those experiments? I thought that was like the crux of those experiments, behaves like wave before, but if you measure then wave function collapses and you see it go one way or the other as a single particle? What is the subtlety I am missing?

As always, I appreciate the help with these baby steps!
 
  • #73
HomesliceMMA said:
Can you explain how that second part is wrong? It does not behave like a wave before the measurement in those experiments?
You reasoned yourself to a wrong answer in post #67 by assuming that it did behave like a wave before the measurement. (Although you might want to take a look at the classical wave theory of diffraction to see if you might want to revise your intuitive guess about what classical wave behavior would result in.)

However, there's a clearer case: Compton scattering. The behavior "before measurement" is most easily modeled as simple billiard-ball type collisions between X-ray photons and electrons--i.e., particle behavior (though you have to use the relativistic energy-momentum relations). But the measurement itself, where you see the effect on the X-rays (their frequency decreases and their wavelength increases), is a wave measurement--you measure the frequency and wavelength before and after and compare them. So this case is exactly backwards from your description: the "particle-like" behavior occurs while the quantum object is not being measured, and the "wave-like" behavior occurs when it is.
 
  • #74
HomesliceMMA said:
I thought that was like the crux of those experiments, behaves like wave before, but if you measure then wave function collapses and you see it go one way or the other as a single particle?
In some experiments, the actual measurement does show more or less "particle-like" behavior, yes. But not all of them (I gave a counterexample in post #73 just now). Similarly, in some experiments, the "in between measurement" behavior can be seen as "wave-like" behavior--but not all of them (again, I gave a counterexample in post #73).
 
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  • #75
PeterDonis said:
You reasoned yourself to a wrong answer in post #67 by assuming that it did behave like a wave before the measurement. (Although you might want to take a look at the classical wave theory of diffraction to see if you might want to revise your intuitive guess about what classical wave behavior would result in.)

However, there's a clearer case: Compton scattering. The behavior "before measurement" is most easily modeled as simple billiard-ball type collisions between X-ray photons and electrons--i.e., particle behavior (though you have to use the relativistic energy-momentum relations). But the measurement itself, where you see the effect on the X-rays (their frequency decreases and their wavelength increases), is a wave measurement--you measure the frequency and wavelength before and after and compare them. So this case is exactly backwards from your description: the "particle-like" behavior occurs while the quantum object is not being measured, and the "wave-like" behavior occurs when it is.
Man, this is so weird to me (and almost certainly so far above me). I ask anyone that can help - can ANYONE explain this in simple terms to me? And everything I've read (behaves like wave before, particle after, measurement) is dead wrong? I mean, I could google it now and get hundreds or thousands of people saying that same thing effectively. They are all wrong?
 
  • #76
HomesliceMMA said:
Man, this is so weird to me (and almost certainly so far above me). I ask anyone that can help - can ANYONE explain this in simple terms to me? And everything I've read (behaves like wave before, particle after, measurement) is dead wrong? I mean, I could google it now and get hundreds or thousands of people saying that same thing effectively. They are all wrong?
In another of your threads I suggested two books you might find helpful. Whether these are simple enough I don’t know, but I do know that no simpler explanation will be adequate.

Yes, just about everything you have read so far is wrong, although I wouldn’t say “dead wrong”, I’d rather say “seriously misleading.”
Some of the problem is that (as you also heard in that other thread, from PeterDonis) quantum mechanics cannot be properly described without math, so any math-free description is going to be somehow misleading. A further difficulty is that our common sense intuition about how things behave are all based on a lifetime of experience with things that don’t behave quantum mechanically, so we cannot depend on that intuition to help us over the gaps in an incomplete description.
 
  • #77
Shoot Nugatory, I missed that (and I just spent several minutes trying to go back and find it, could not off hand). Might you tell me again? Thank you!!!
 
  • #80
HomesliceMMA said:
I would have thought as you narrow the slit in a single-slit test, the interference pattern would get a little bit narrower.
From my link for single-slit diffraction, the distance from the center of the pattern on the viewing screen to the first minimum (##m = 1##) on either side is $$y \approx \frac {\lambda D} a$$ where ##\lambda## is the wavelength, ##D## is the distance from the slits to the screen and ##a## is the width of the slit. The width of the central maximum is twice this. Clearly as ##a## increases, ##y## increases.

This is for small angles, less than 10 degrees or so depending on how much accuracy you want. For larger angles the calculation becomes more complicated, but you still have ##y## increasing as ##a## decreases.

One way to make this plausible might be to consider that if ##a## becomes small enough, the slit "looks" a lot like a line with a point-like cross section. After passing through it, light spreads out in half-cylindrical waves with a semicircular cross-section. Think of replacing the slit with a glowing, very thin straight wire with a diameter maybe less than a wavelength.
 
  • #81
HomesliceMMA said:
Man, this is so weird to me (and almost certainly so far above me). I ask anyone that can help - can ANYONE explain this in simple terms to me? And everything I've read (behaves like wave before, particle after, measurement) is dead wrong? I mean, I could google it now and get hundreds or thousands of people saying that same thing effectively. They are all wrong?
The confusion comes from the fact that unfortunately many popular-science book writers or, even worse, youtubers like to have quantum theory to present "something weird". They think they'd make the subject more interesting to sell their stuff better or getting higher click numbers. However, the really exciting aspect of science is that it describes the objectively observable phenomena of Nature in ever more clear and complete mathematical (!) models and theories.

All the "quantum weirdness" goes away, when you are accepting that the currently valid version of this theory is the one discovered in 1925-1926 in three equivalent forms: Born, Jordan, Heisenberg -> "matrix mechanics" (including the quantization of the electromagnetic field!), Schrödinger -> "wave mechanics", and Dirac -> "transformation theory". The latter is the most general scheme, which is based exclusively on the idea that the observables are described as a algebra of so-called self-adjoint operators on a Hilbert space, enabling the description of the symmetry principles already known from classical physics.

This mathematical formalism allows you describe the probability for the outcomes of measurements on a quantum system, which has been prepared in some way described by the quantum state. That's all that can be described by quantum theory (QT), and it's, as far as we know today, also the only description with is consistent with all observations ever made in attempts to testing the theory.

The confusing ideas of "wave-particle dualism" etc. is due to an old predecessor description of the behavior of nature in the quantum realm, rightfully dubbed "the old quantum theory". It was a collection of guesses, based on classical physics, adding some ad-hoc "quantum rules". This only leads to an apparent success for discribing the most simple systems. In fact it only works for the free particle, the hydrogen atom, and the harmonic oscillator (including the free electromagnetic field and thus also Planck's black-body radiation law). Today we know that's just, because these systems are described by equations of motion that have an exceptionally high symmetry, and in this sense that's just by sheer luck. It doesn't work already for the next-most simple atom, the Helium atom.

On top it leads to obviously wrong qualitative conclusions: E.g., according to the Bohr-Sommerfeld model of the hydrogen atom, you'd expect that such an atom is geometrically seen as a little disk, i.e., the electron runs around the proton in a planar circular or elliptic orbit (similar to the planets running around the Sun according to Kepler's laws). In fact a hydrogen atom in its ground state is a spherical object, and that's what's indeed observed in scattering experiments.

Even worse, as you realize yourself, the picture the "old quantum mechanics" provides as a description of nature, is intrinsically contradictory. Wave-particle dualism is the most infamous example for this: Of course, it's intrinsically inconsistent to think that a particle like an electron is both a wave and a particle at the same time, and that's resolved by modern quantum theory by an admittedly quite abstract description of what's observable about an electron in real-world experiments. The solution of the apparent wave-particle paradox is the probabilistic meaning of the quantum state, i.e., that all you can know about an electron are the probabilities for the outcome of measurements of some observables (its position, momentum, magnetic moment, etc.) given the state this electron is "prepared" in before making these measurements. In the wave-mechanics formulation the most determined states (so-called "pure states") are described by Schrödinger's wave function, whose meaning is that its moduluse squared provides the probability distribution for its position and the probability for finding one of the components of the spin in direction of an applied magnetic field used to measure it (e.g., in a Stern-Gerlach experiment) in either spin up or spin down direction (##\sigma_z \in \{\hbar/2,-\hbar/2 \}##).
 
  • #82
HomesliceMMA said:
everything I've read (behaves like wave before, particle after, measurement) is dead wrong?
How many of these things you've read were textbooks or peer-reviewed papers?
 
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