Your thoughts on the Lord of the Rings series

[PeterDonis]

characters are either entirely good or entirely evii.

I wouldn't put it quite like that (although it is a fairly common--if IMO mistaken--criticism of Tolkien that he presents everything as morally black and white). I would put it that the way characters end up, their final fates, are either entirely good (e.g., Aragorn having a peaceful reign as King for 120 years) or entirely evil (e.g., Denethor burning himself on a pyre and trying to do likewise with Faramir). But that doesn't mean everything they do has the same valence. Aragorn makes mistakes, and Denethor does some good things.

There is relatively little nuance. Saruman was corrupted by using the Palantr (It's true! TV does rot your brain!) and not beause he intrinsically felt that the ends justify the means.

I don't agree with this. Saruman, for example, is not corrupted by the palantir. He is corrupted by Sauron through the palantir, but he is only vulnerable to such corruption because he has already adopted the view that the ends justify the means, and done so long before. (To be fair, much of this back story isn't even brought out in the Appendices to LotR; you have to read Of The Rings Of Power and several of the pieces in Unfinished Tales to fully appreciate what happens to Saruman and how long it takes to happen. For example, he prevents the White Council from driving Sauron out of Dol Guldur for 90 years because he believes that the Ring will reveal itself and give Saruman a chance to take it for himself if Sauron is let be for a time.)

Denethor, similarly, gives way to despair only after decades of successfully holding off Sauron's threat to his realm. (And note that Sauron is not able to corrupt Denethor through the palantir; all Sauron can do is affect what Denethor can see through the palantir, so he only sees the things that promote despair and not those that promote hope.) And what finally makes him give way is the apparently un-healable wound to his son; what father would not be at least somewhat vulnerable to despair under those conditions? But if he were open to the possibility of a King coming again, he might have wondered if the tales about the King's hands being hands of healing might be true and might provide a hope of healing for Faramir.

there is stll a sense of interchangability of his non-Man characters. What differences of opinion is there betweem say Dwalin and Oin? Dwarves is dwarves, and elves is elves and orcs is orcs and that's all there is to it.

To the extent this is true, I think it's just an unavoidable limitation of any storytelling--you can't possibly tell the full story of every character you present. Many characters, just by the nature of the medium, will end up being supporting characters with much less development than the main ones. Dwalin and Oin are supporting characters and don't get the same development; there's no way around that.

But if you consider the main characters of the different races, I don't think they're all the same. Gimli, and even Gloin in LotR, though his appearance is much briefer, are not the same as Thorin in The Hobbit. Elrond is not the same as Galadriel, or Cirdan, or Glorfindel. Even the main orcs are differentiated: Ugluk is not the same as Grisnakh, nor are either of them the same as Gorbag or Shagrat.

 

[DaveC426913]

From one half-elf who chose to be human...

A half-elf who, by choosing to marry him, chose to be human, just as Elros did....

So, elves are not exactly role models for today's trans-gender, fluid-orientation or racial equity issues...

The X-Men were a great role-model for "It's not a choice; it's who I am" that marginalized communities could get behind ... that is, until the movies decided that - "oh yes, there is a cure! Just a little pinprick and you're human!" That was a bad precedent. But I digress...

 

[Rive]

Dwarves is dwarves, and elves is elves and orcs is orcs and that's all there is to it.

Actually, I think he tried to address that lack of depth in Silmarillion, but it (of course) came later (well, mostly) and not really present in LOTR.

 

[Hornbein]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Divine right of kings, rolyal blood and all that.

The Royal House of Gondor mucked it up in Numenor, and then abandoned Gondor to go camping - for something like a thousand years. If you want a modern example, what would the reaction of His Majesty King Charles be to someone who comes in saying "Hi, Chucky-boy. I'm Billy Plantagenet and I think you're sitting in my chair. Off you go!"

Well if he showed up with a giant army of sword-wielding ghosts I'd say "Yes, Your Royal Highness."

 

[PeterDonis]

I think he tried to address that lack of depth in Silmarillion

Certainly in the case of elves the Silmarillion gives much more information about their particular history and motivations and how they differ from those of humans. However...

it (of course) came later (well, mostly) and not really present in LOTR.

I think there is plenty of information in LotR that differentiates elves from humans (and hobbits--the real question to me is how hobbits and humans in LotR differ). To take just some examples off the top of my head:

Gildor's strong reluctance to give advice to Frodo and Sam, even though he knows Gandalf has disappeared and that they are being pursued by servants of the enemy.

Glorfindel's abilities as compared with Aragorn's after he finds the company and when they are up against the Nazgul at the Ford of Bruinen.

The fact that all of the Elven leaders--Elrond, Galadriel, Cirdan, even Thranduil (Legolas's father), will only act in defense of their own realms, even though they clearly have great power available to them.

The desire to retain the past not just in memory but by keeping it somehow in the present, as is the case in Lorien.

And, of course, the fact that elves are not mortal as humans are.

For dwarves, there is maybe not quite as much information in LotR to differentiate them, since Gimli is the only dwarf character that is really developed in LotR. But even with him you can see differences from elves and humans. (Consider, for example, the by-play between Eomer and Gimli concerning whether Galadriel is the fairest lady that lives. Eomer, while never being patronizing, clearly recognizes a humorous element to it all, but Gimli never does. Or the different attitudes that Legolas and Gimli take to Fangorn, on the one hand, and the Glittering Caves of Aglarond, on the other. The latter is particularly surprising since Legolas's father's home is a system of caves, modeled on Thingol's stronghold of Menegroth described in the Silmarillion.)

 

[Vanadium 50]

he believes that the Ring will reveal itself

And to quote Sheriff Bart from Blazing Saddles, "And they was right!"

unavoidable limitation of any storytelling--you can't possibly tell the full story of every character you present

No, but you can give them more personality and less interchangeably that Tolkien did.

We have the example of the X-men. If you were to switch the words around so the wrong characters would appear to be speaking, we would notice. If on Star Trek Chekov and Sulu's scripts were switched, we would notice. Heck, we could stay with dwarfs and swap Bashful and Grumpy and we'd notice.

Didn't we have a Game of Thrones thread here? I like George R.R. Martin, although I don't think this was his best work. But there you have a giant cast as well, with a great deal of delineation between them, And there they are not neatly sorted into "good" and "evil" (although most are in the category of "evil"). So I don't think it can be done. I think it wasn't done.

I also believe Tolkien knew it and just didn't care. He didn't see himself writing a novel - he saw himself writing an epic poem, albeit in prose.

 

[DennisN]

Saruman was corrupted by using the Palantr (It's true! TV does rot your brain!)

 

[Hornbein]

He didn't see himself writing a novel - he saw himself writing an epic poem, albeit in prose.

I suppose that the mythic style is why I prefer the LOTRT to a novel. It's to immortalize the great acts of heroes. May their renown ring forever. It's the least we can do.

On the other hand there is a modern touch. Frodo suffers from PTSD. Did any of the famed heroes of yore? Nay, they made merry then went on to other deeds. They died either gloriously in battle or in an honored old age.

 

[strangerep]

The Royal House of Gondor mucked it up in Numenor,

Rubbish. It was the line of Al-Pharazon that "mucked it up" in Numenor, not the line of Elendil.

and then abandoned Gondor to go camping - for something like a thousand years.

More rubbish. Isildur didn't leave Gondor to go "camping", but to order the northern kingdom of Arnor. They were only reduced to being "Rangers" much later after eventually being decimated by Angmar.

If you want a modern example, what would the reaction of His Majesty King Charles be to someone who comes in saying "Hi, Chucky-boy. I'm Billy Plantagenet and I think you're sitting in my chair. Off you go!"

Irrelevant. Denethor was a steward, not a king, although he did indeed express that sentiment.
Initially, Aragon specifically refused to enter Minas Tirith as a "King returning" precisely because it would stir up trouble and dissent. He only entered as King later, (after Sauron's downfall), by explicit acclaim from the populace.

 

[Hornbein]

Vanadium 50 said:
Saruman was corrupted by using the Palantr (It's true! TV does rot your brain!)

In our times the brain-rotting capabilities of the Palantir abide with us. Palantir Technology made a deal with Aaron "Gangsta" Barr to supply spy software to the Chamber of Commerce. The goal was to collect damaging information on their political enemies, mostly union organizations like the AFL-CIO. The deal was exposed. While Barr stopped short of raising an army of warrior clones or immolating himself, he resigned as CEO of HBGary Federal, dyed his hair blue, and joined the Occupy movement. Close enough.

Wall Street is bullish on data collection/spy software. Palantir boasts two billion in sales with $400 million in losses per annum. Projections call for strong growth.

 

[strangerep]

How do we know that Sauron was evil? We actually see very little of him.

Wow, you're really good at spewing crap about LotR. Try reading the tale of Beren & Luthien if you really don't think Sauron was an evil monster.

 

[Hornbein]

Wow, you're really good at spewing crap about LotR. Try reading the tale of Beren & Luthien if you really don't think Sauron was an evil monster.

But how do we know that JRR wasn't corrupted by elvish inducements to smear the populist orc uprising in pursuit of racial justice? There's always risk in relying on a single source.

 

[strangerep]

Shagrat.

I love that name. Shag-rat.

 

[Hornbein]

JRR Tolkien borrowed a lot from real life. The Dark Tower of Barad-dûr is modeled on Borobodur in Indonesia, which he visited. Near to Borobodur is a dramatic Mount Doom style active volcano. The Morguls came from the Mogols aka Mughals, the Islamic conquerers of northern India. As for Sauron. Sargon of Sumer was the first ruler to have a standing army and an empire.

 

[PeterDonis]

how do we know that JRR wasn't corrupted by elvish inducements to smear the populist antiracist orc uprising? There's always risk in relying on a single source.

A full-length exposition of something like this theme is The Last Ringbearer:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Ringbearer

 

[Hornbein]

So, elves are not exactly role models for today's trans-gender, fluid-orientation or racial equity issues...

The X-Men were a great role-model for "It's not a choice; it's who I am" that marginalized communities could get behind ... that is, until the movies decided that - "oh yes, there is a cure! Just a little pinprick and you're human!" That was a bad precedent. But I digress...

Doubtless pro-vax propaganda. Thusly are the sacred texts of Lee and Kirby defiled. Is there no escape? :-)

 

[strangerep]

[...] A half-elf who, by choosing to marry him, chose to be human,

This is one thing I'm not clear about. Exactly how/when did Arwen become mortal? Was it gradual, starting when she fell head-over-heels in love with Aragon? Or all at once when they did their first naughty?

Tolkien, of course, was too much of an olde worlde gentleman to spell out that detail.

just as Elros did.

Hmm. Did Elros just "choose it", standalone. Or did he just fall in love with some mortal girl? IIRC, none of Tolien's writings clarify that point.

 

[strangerep]

But how do we know that JRR wasn't corrupted by elvish inducements to smear the populist orc uprising in pursuit of racial justice?

Oh. Is that why there's a sub-theme along those lines in the Rings of Power tv show?

 

[Hornbein]

Oh. Is that why there's a sub-theme along those lines in the Rings of Power tv show?

Orc consumerist power is not to be taken lightly.

 

[PeterDonis]

Exactly how/when did Arwen become mortal?

Based on the ending of the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen in the Appendices, it seems like Arwen in principle could have chosen not to be mortal right up until her death. Aragorn tells her, as he is on his deathbed, that she must either take an elven ship over the sea, or die a mortal death; and she responds that there isn't any ship she could take. So it seems like if there had been an elven ship available (and it's a bit of a mystery why there wouldn't be, since elsewhere in the Appendices it is said that Legolas takes a ship over the sea after Aragorn's passing), she could have chosen not to become mortal.

Did Elros just "choose it", standalone.

Yes. That is made explicit in the Appendices, and in the Silmarillion. This choice was what enabled him to become the first King of Numenor.

 

[strangerep]

Orc consumerist power is not to be taken lightly.

Yes (sigh). Proof: the crowd and participants in State of Origin rugby league here in Oz.

 

[strangerep]

Based on the ending of the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen in the Appendices, it seems like Arwen in principle could have chosen not to be mortal right up until her death. Aragorn tells her, as he is on his deathbed, that she must either take an elven ship over the sea, or die a mortal death; and she responds that there isn't any ship she could take. So it seems like if there had been an elven ship available (and it's a bit of a mystery why there wouldn't be, since elsewhere in the Appendices it is said that Legolas takes a ship over the sea after Aragorn's passing), she could have chosen not to become mortal.

That's not how I interpreted it. I thought Arwen couldn't take an elven ship because she had already become mortal.

If I can remember the quote... Arwen was "not yet weary of her days and thus tasted the bitterness of the mortality that she had taken upon her".

 

[PeterDonis]

If I can remember the quote... Arwen was "not yet weary of her days and thus tasted the bitterness of the mortality that she had taken upon her".

Here's the full passage, starting from Arwen standing by Aragorn's bed:

And for all her wisdom and lineage she could not forbear to plead with him to stay yet for a while. She was not yet weary of her days, and thus she tasted the bitterness of the mortality that she had taken upon her.

"Lady Undomiel," said Aragorn, "the hour is indeed hard, yet it was made even in that day when we met under the white birches in the garden of Elrond where none now walk. And on the hill of Cerin Amroth when we forsook both the Shadow and the Twilight this doom we accepted. Take counsel with yourself, beloved, and ask whether you would indeed have me wait until I wither and fall from my high seat unmanned and witless. Nay, lady, I am the last of the Numenoreans and the latest King of the Elder Days, and to me has been given not only a span thrice that of Men of Middle-earth, but also the grace to go at my will, and give back the gift. Now, therefore, I will sleep.

"I speak no comfort to you, for there is no comfort for such pain within the circles of the world. The uttermost choice is before you: to repent and go to the Havens and bear away into the West the memory of our days together that shall there be evergreen but never more than memory, or else to abide the Doom of Men."

"Nay, dear lord," she said, "that choice is long over. There is now no ship that would bear me hence, and I must indeed abide the Doom of Men, whether I will or I nill: the loss and the silence."

Note that Aragorn speaks of the "uttermost choice" before Arwen after the passage you quoted about Arwen tasting the bitterness of mortality; and her response to him is to say that there are no more ships available.

 

[strangerep]

Note that Aragorn speaks of the "uttermost choice" before Arwen after the passage you quoted about Arwen tasting the bitterness of mortality; and her response to him is to say that there are no more ships available.

I always interpreted the full phrase, i.e., "There is now no ship that would bear me hence..." to mean that no elven shipmaster would consent to bear a mortal to Valinor, not that no elven ships existed.

(I guess she didn't know about the eventual outcome of the Legolas-Gimli bromance...

[It's curious though that Aragorn obviously thought Arwen could potentially "repent".]

 

[Hornbein]

I always interpreted the full phrase, i.e., "There is now no ship that would bear me hence..." to mean that no elven shipmaster would consent to bear a mortal to Valinor, not that no elven ships existed.

(I guess she didn't know about the eventual outcome of the Legolas-Gimli bromance...

[It's curious though that Aragorn obviously thought Arwen could potentially "repent".]

I'm no expert on such things, but didn't those ships bear mortal Frodo?

 

[strangerep]

I'm no expert on such things, but didn't those ships bear mortal Frodo?

Ah, good point -- and Arwen would certainly have known about that.

I guess it comes down to whether the mortal has special dispensation. Tolkien never explains how Manwe (or whoever in Valinor) communicated to Gandalf(?) that it was ok to bring along his deeply wounded little buddies.

 

[PeterDonis]

didn't those ships bear mortal Frodo?

And Bilbo. But they were both Ring-bearers, and that apparently put them in a sort of in-between category. It's not made clear in LotR what is supposed to happen to them after they arrive in Eressea--are they to stay there indefinitely, or only for a limited time, after which they pass on to some other fate?

(It's interesting, btw, that Arwen tells Frodo that he will take her place on an elven ship.)

 

[strangerep]

(It's interesting, btw, that Arwen tells Frodo that he will take her place on an elven ship.)

Yes. I'd forgotten about that. I wonder how Arwen actually transferred her ticket.

 

[strangerep]

It's not made clear in LotR what is supposed to happen to them after they arrive in Eressea--are they to stay there indefinitely, or only for a limited time, after which they pass on to some other fate?

I got the impression that both Bilbo and Frodo would receive healing in Valinor that could not occur in Middle Earth. But presumably they would both remain mortal -- just living out their finite lives more enjoyably than would have been possible in Hobbiton or Rivendell.

 

[Hornbein]

A full-length exposition of something like this theme is The Last Ringbearer:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Ringbearer

Just yesterday I wrote, sooner or later everything imaginable will already have been done. What then?