Killing Animals for Unreliable Aphrodisiacs - Unforgivable

[Mk]

Pythagorus was the father of vegetarianism, in fact until about 120 years ago vegetarians were often referred to as pythagrians. Here is what he had to say about killing animals.

"As long as man continues to be the ruthless destroyer of lower beings, he will never know health or peace. For as long as men massacre animals, they will kill each other. Indeed, he who sows the seeds of murder and pain cannot reap joy and love" -Pythagorus

Who's Pythagorus? He doesn't know what he's talking about!

But seriously, I knew him in high school, he's a great guy and all, but I think he's pretty wrong in the quote.

As long as men massacre animals, they will massacre each other? Meat is a vital part of every man's diet, and it is very tough to supplement it with vegetables and pills, this is out of the question.

He who sows the seeds of murder and pain cannot reap joy and love? I have caused murder and pain, but still can experience happiness. I can still love.

We all sow and reap.

 

[Smasherman]

Meat is not in any way necessary for a healthy diet. Our modern practices make it more difficult to eat a meatless diet in some ways (B12 requires some uncleanliness), and in some ways easier (wider variety).

As for the sowing and reaping, it's about violence. If you kill someone, you're going to make others who loved that person hate you. They'll then commit violence (not necessarily against you), and so on and so forth. As for yourself, if you act kindly to all things, you'll feel happier. It's the feeling you get when you do a kind deed to another. It doesn't stop at people either; when I help an animal, I feel better. The more human-like an animal is, the greater the feeling, since you can relate better.

As for life and non-life, I don't see much of a difference either. I hold sentience in high regard, however. My reasons are illogical (as all beliefs are), but I like them: consciousness is somehow better than lack thereof, so I prefer it. Likewise, I prefer creative thought over uncreative thought.

 

[Skyhunter]

Who's Pythagorus? He doesn't know what he's talking about!

He started the first university about 500BC in Greece. Is most famous for the Pythagorean theorem. (A squared plus B squared equals C squared)

But seriously, I knew him in high school, he's a great guy and all, but I think he's pretty wrong in the quote.

As long as men massacre animals, they will massacre each other? Meat is a vital part of every man's diet, and it is very tough to supplement it with vegetables and pills, this is out of the question.

I eat a plant based diet that is 99% vegan. At 45 I am healthy, strong, athletic, and suffer no maladies whatsoever. I no longer get indigestion, heartburn, or suffer from hemorrhoids. Since switching to a vegan diet I have not even caught a cold.

If meat is essential to every man's diet you can't prove it by me. I ate meat most of my life. Now I don't. I have experienced both diets, I know the difference on an experiential level, which is the deepest level of knowledge.

He who sows the seeds of murder and pain cannot reap joy and love? I have caused murder and pain, but still can experience happiness. I can still love.

We all sow and reap.

I grew up on a farm. I murdered animals that had learned to trust me. I had to overecome my compassion for them before I could do the deed. I killed the compassion inside me when I committed this act. Now I am in the process of bringing that compassion back to life inside me. Oddly enough I find it easier to feel compassion for animals than humans. Animals are mostly innocent, people can be cruel for no reason.

 

[Skyhunter]

Nice going with your post. You did a very good job.

This is definitely a different kind of value. This seems to be a better suited definition: The quality (positive or negative) that renders something desirable. Ehh?

You caught me there, I used a definition from Wiktionary, located at en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Main_Page. And I had not given much thought to the definition, though I was thinking about it walking in Waikiki yesterday.

I wanted to make a decision on how I think, and understand why I think it, and what backs it up. So far I've only decided their is no clear cut line between life and inanimate.

First I thought, life has value right? Of course it does! But why? Because life is desirable. We prefer a dog to a rock, a houseplant to a rock. But would we prefer mold growing on bread instead of a rock? I might prefer a rock. Right now I've got to go, but I'll be thinking, how I spend most of my day. Post with your thoughts, especially you Skyhunter.


Mk

The more evolved a being is toward sentience, the more energy the universe spends in producing it. This is a rough measure that I use to judge the value of a life. A fly lives a very short life and is not highly evolved, however the larval life of a fly serves a very important purpose. Once it becomes a fly and mates, its reason for being ends.

On the other hand a human being is conscious of a physical, mental, and spiritual existence. We still don't know our purpose, but I am fairly certain that our purpose is not to consume the world.

The greatest single thing that an individual can do to lessen their impact on the environment is to eat a plant based diet.

 

[Townsend]

The greatest single thing that an individual can do to lessen their impact on the environment is to eat a plant based diet.

You're kidding me right? What about fuel consumption? What about the fact that commercial farming ruins millions of acres of habitat? You think because you eat corn that you're helping to save the world? that is the funniest thing I have read in a while...

 

[stoned]

You're kidding me right? What about fuel consumption? What about the fact that commercial farming ruins millions of acres of habitat? You think because you eat corn that you're helping to save the world? that is the funniest thing I have read in a while...

you wrong. most of corn, soy or wheat is cultivated to feed cows, pigs or other farm animals, and we still have billions of tons of wheat left waiting for buyers.

 

[Townsend]

you wrong. most of corn, soy or wheat is cultivated to feed cows, pigs or other farm animals, and we still have billions of tons of wheat left waiting for buyers.

So how does that make me wrong?

 

[wolram]

Does anyone know how much energy is needed to cultivate and turn a cereal into a meat substitute, and how much is needed to feed an animal and prosses it for consumption ?
I know it is a crude way to evaluate the life of an animal, but a valid point ?

 

[Smurf]

The greatest single thing that an individual can do to lessen their impact on the environment is to eat a plant based diet.

Plus it's healthier and has some...umm... other... benefits. I've been a vegetarian for 3 months.

 

[Smurf]

Does anyone know how much energy is needed to cultivate and turn a cereal into a meat substitute, and how much is needed to feed an animal and prosses it for consumption ?
I know it is a crude way to evaluate the life of an animal, but a valid point ?

It's probably fair to suggest that it takes more than twice the energy than just cultivating and consuming the crop straight.

 

[Skyhunter]

You're kidding me right? What about fuel consumption? What about the fact that commercial farming ruins millions of acres of habitat? You think because you eat corn that you're helping to save the world? that is the funniest thing I have read in a while...

Here is a short list:

Cause of global warming: greenhouse effect
Primary cause of greenhouse effect: carbon dioxide emissions from fossil fuels
Fossil fuels needed to produce meat-centered diet vs. a meat-free diet: 3 times more
Percentage of U.S. topsoil lost to date: 75
Percentage of U.S. topsoil loss directly related to livestock raising: 85
Number of acres of U.S. forest cleared for cropland to produce meat-centered diet: 260 million
Amount of meat imported to U.S. annually from Central and South America: 300,000,000 pounds
Percentage of Central American children under the age of five who are undernourished: 75
Area of tropical rainforest consumed in every quarter-pound of rainforest beef: 55 square feet
Current rate of species extinction due to destruction of tropical rainforests for meat grazing and other uses: 1,000 per year

 

[Skyhunter]

The higher up the food chain a life form is, the more energy and rescources needed to produce it.

Is that not clearly evident?

If it were not for all the subsidies in the way of water, fuel, and land, a hamburger would cost $10.00 not $1.00.

Look at the price of a box of cereal, which is a single meal for a pig. Look at the price of a pound of bacon.

How can the meat from a pig cost less than the grains needed to feed it?

We subsidize agriculture in order to have cheap food. I don't want to do away with cheap food, I just want humans to take the next step in social evolution and go vegetarian.

Just because everyone "knows" something doesn't make it true. We believe we need meat because our culture whispers to us that we have always killed animals for food and it is right.

The time is right for humans to evolve. As a great prophet once said: "The meek shall inherit the earth."

Go kill an animal, it is not a meek act.

If you believe you were biologically designed to eat meat, kill it and eat it raw with your bare hands and teeth!

 

[Mk]

consciousness is somehow better than lack thereof, so I prefer it. Likewise, I prefer creative thought over uncreative thought.

Aye, I think we all do.

The more evolved a being is toward sentience, the more energy the universe spends in producing it. This is a rough measure that I use to judge the value of a life. A fly lives a very short life and is not highly evolved, however the larval life of a fly serves a very important purpose. Once it becomes a fly and mates, its reason for being ends.

On the other hand a human being is conscious of a physical, mental, and spiritual existence. We still don't know our purpose.

This seems to be meandering into religion, too far off topic.

The greatest single thing that an individual can do to lessen their impact on the environment is to eat a plant based diet.

Really? Let's all eat greens for the rest of our lives!

It really is the most important thing in the world.

*sighs mournfully*

Like I said before, conditions on Earth are always changing, and dramatically is not rare. It is not something new, caused by humans. Termite mounds, beaver dams, and coral reefs all change their environment dramatically, affecting huge amounts other creatures. Are they interferring with nature? They are not. Because they are nature, a part of it. We are the environment part of it, we're not beings totally unlike everything else in the backyard. We came from it, we we will recede into it.

Passive protection, leaving things alone, doesn't preserve the status quo within a wilderness any more than it does in your backyard. The world is alive, things are constantly in flux. Species are winning, losing, rising, falling, exploding, bottlenecking, taking over, being pushed back. Merely leaving it alone doesn't put it in a state of supsended animation. Its like locking your son or daughter in their bedroom and expecting them not to grow up.

Why are we interferring with the course of nature? Why do some try to keep it the way it is? Why do some blame humans for changing it? It will change for better or for worse, if we are here are not here. If humans were in this state of development before the last ice age, we would blame each other for causing it.

He started the first university about 500BC in Greece. Is most famous for the Pythagorean theorem. (A squared plus B squared equals C squared)

Well, I don't know rather to feel insulted, or insulted. Maybe you didn't understand me, I didn't communicate my point well, or a monkey fell from the sky.

I eat a plant based diet that is 99% vegan. At 45 I am healthy, strong, athletic, and suffer no maladies whatsoever. I no longer get indigestion, heartburn, or suffer from hemorrhoids. Since switching to a vegan diet I have not even caught a cold.

If meat is essential to every man's diet you can't prove it by me. I ate meat most of my life. Now I don't. I have experienced both diets, I know the difference on an experiential level, which is the deepest level of knowledge.

Good for you. I hope someday we can all be that way. Sadly, on that way there will be both reaping and sowing.

I grew up on a farm. I murdered animals...

Remember, livestock are different from people. I'm sure you read my thought experiment with the choice between pushing a deer and a man off the Observation Deck of the Empire State Building.

[I murdered the animals] that had learned to trust me.

I'm not sure if chickens and sheep have the mental capacity to trust. Anyone want to shed light on this?

I killed the compassion inside me when I committed this act. Now I am in the process of bringing that compassion back to life inside me.

How many years has it been that you had no compassion? How many people did you kill, rape, torture?

Oddly enough I find it easier to feel compassion for animals than humans.

That's sad. That is really sad. I still have my compassion to know that.

Animals are mostly innocent, people can be cruel for no reason.

Believe it or not, but not all animals are innocent. Despite the popular image of the animal being easygoing and peaceful,
the hippopotamus is actually one of the most dangerous animals in
Africa, and is said to account for more human deaths than any other
African mammal. This is not because they are more aggressive than
other African mammals but rather because they are highly territorial
and their space often conflicts with that of farmers and tourists. Its canine teeth are 50 cm (20 inches) long, and it uses
its head as a battering ram. Hippopotamuses are 1.5 metres (5 ft) tall at the shoulder and weigh 1,500 kg up to 3,200 kg (3300 up to 7040 lb). They are approximately the same size as the White Rhinoceros and one or the
other is the next-largest land animal after the species of elephants.
While it is accepted that a hippo can run faster than a human on land,
there are various estimates of its actual running speed. Some
web-sites claim 30 km/h (18 mph), while others record 40 km/h (25 mph)
or even 48 km/h (30 mph). The higher values probably refer to short
bursts. They can move at 8 km/h in water.

Cause of global warming: greenhouse effect

I thought we agreed to stay out of global warming! This thread is about if humans should kill other animals, not climactic systems!

Primary cause of greenhouse effect: carbon dioxide emissions from fossil fuels

I'm sorry, but scientists do not have much of an idea if carbon dioxide comes from fossil fuel emissions.

Fossil fuels needed to produce meat-centered diet vs. a meat-free diet: 3 times more

Where did you get that figure?

Percentage of U.S. topsoil lost to date: 75

It's lost! Well where did it go?

Percentage of U.S. topsoil loss directly related to livestock raising: 85

What do you mean by directly? Were the cows too heavy? Did they smash the soil up? Did they eat the grass that was sucking nutrients out of the soil? How are we sure its America's fault? The Earth changes, remember that. Where did you get that figure?

Number of acres of U.S. forest cleared for cropland to produce meat-centered diet: 260 million

Over what period of time? Since the pilgrims came? Since last year?

The total area of the US's 50 states and District of Columbia is 9,631,418 sq km.
The area of the US's 50 states and District of Columbia being used for crops is 0.22% of the total area.

Amount of meat imported to U.S. annually from Central and South America: 300,000,000 pounds

Sounds like a lot.

From the USDA*

In fiscal year 1999, FSIS inspected 3.38 billion pounds of imported meat and poultry from 31 countries, most of which was fresh and processed meat; only a small amount of poultry was imported. This represented less than 10 percent of the domestic meat supply.

From the US Embassy**

lamb meat imports from Australia and New Zealand increased 49 percent from 1993 to 1997. Those two markets account for about 98 percent of U.S. imports, according to the USITC.

From the Committee on Government Reform***

In addition to domestic products, 3.8 billion pounds of imported meat, poultry, and processed egg products were presented for entry into the U.S. from 28 of 33 countries eligible to export to the United States in
FY 2003

Percentage of Central American children under the age of five who are undernourished: 75

Undernourished could mean a lot of things, there are several forms, levels, and causes of malnutrition.

Area of tropical rainforest consumed in every quarter-pound of rainforest beef: 55 square feet

I'm sorry, I really don't understand this. Quarter-pounders come from McDonalds.

Current rate of species extinction due to destruction of tropical rainforests for meat grazing and other uses: 1,000 per year

Sorry to burst your bubble, but biologists don't know much about how many species there are in the world, in forests, in rainforests, even in a few acres! They can't even tell the population. You know how they try and find out how many bugs live in an area of a forest? They mark off an area and have someone count each thing that walks across the area that is being measured. Many times does the researcher count the same creature twice, three times, four times, or not at all. What if it walks across it, then decides to backtrack, or just happens to walk across it again? There really is no way to tell.

Maybe you can learn more on vegsource.com

* http://www.fsis.usda.gov/Fact_Sheets/FSIS_Import_Procedures/index.asp
** http://canberra.usembassy.gov/hyper/WF990326/epf518.htm
*** http://66.102.7.104/unclesam?q=cach...les/Pierson_USDA.pdf+Import+meat+pounds&hl=en

 

[Skyhunter]

Aye, I think we all do.


This seems to be meandering into religion, too far off topic.


Really? Let's all eat greens for the rest of our lives!

It really is the most important thing in the world.

*sighs mournfully*

Like I said before, conditions on Earth are always changing, and dramatically is not rare. It is not something new, caused by humans. Termite mounds, beaver dams, and coral reefs all change their environment dramatically, affecting huge amounts other creatures. Are they interferring with nature? They are not. Because they are nature, a part of it. We are the environment part of it, we're not beings totally unlike everything else in the backyard. We came from it, we we will recede into it.

Passive protection, leaving things alone, doesn't preserve the status quo within a wilderness any more than it does in your backyard. The world is alive, things are constantly in flux. Species are winning, losing, rising, falling, exploding, bottlenecking, taking over, being pushed back. Merely leaving it alone doesn't put it in a state of supsended animation. Its like locking your son or daughter in their bedroom and expecting them not to grow up.

Why are we interferring with the course of nature? Why do some try to keep it the way it is? Why do some blame humans for changing it? It will change for better or for worse, if we are here are not here. If humans were in this state of development before the last ice age, we would blame each other for causing it.



Well, I don't know rather to feel insulted, or insulted. Maybe you didn't understand me, I didn't communicate my point well, or a monkey fell from the sky.


Good for you. I hope someday we can all be that way. Sadly, on that way there will be both reaping and sowing.


Remember, livestock are different from people. I'm sure you read my thought experiment with the choice between pushing a deer and a man off the Observation Deck of the Empire State Building.

I'm not sure if chickens and sheep have the mental capacity to trust. Anyone want to shed light on this?


How many years has it been that you had no compassion? How many people did you kill, rape, torture?


That's sad. That is really sad. I still have my compassion to know that.


Believe it or not, but not all animals are innocent. Despite the popular image of the animal being easygoing and peaceful,
the hippopotamus is actually one of the most dangerous animals in
Africa, and is said to account for more human deaths than any other
African mammal. This is not because they are more aggressive than
other African mammals but rather because they are highly territorial
and their space often conflicts with that of farmers and tourists. Its canine teeth are 50 cm (20 inches) long, and it uses
its head as a battering ram. Hippopotamuses are 1.5 metres (5 ft) tall at the shoulder and weigh 1,500 kg up to 3,200 kg (3300 up to 7040 lb). They are approximately the same size as the White Rhinoceros and one or the
other is the next-largest land animal after the species of elephants.
While it is accepted that a hippo can run faster than a human on land,
there are various estimates of its actual running speed. Some
web-sites claim 30 km/h (18 mph), while others record 40 km/h (25 mph)
or even 48 km/h (30 mph). The higher values probably refer to short
bursts. They can move at 8 km/h in water.


I thought we agreed to stay out of global warming! This thread is about if humans should kill other animals, not climactic systems!

I'm sorry, but scientists do not have much of an idea if carbon dioxide comes from fossil fuel emissions.

Where did you get that figure?

It's lost! Well where did it go?

What do you mean by directly? Were the cows too heavy? Did they smash the soil up? Did they eat the grass that was sucking nutrients out of the soil? How are we sure its America's fault? The Earth changes, remember that. Where did you get that figure?

Over what period of time? Since the pilgrims came? Since last year?

The total area of the US's 50 states and District of Columbia is 9,631,418 sq km.
The area of the US's 50 states and District of Columbia being used for crops is 0.22% of the total area.


Sounds like a lot.

From the USDA*


From the US Embassy**


From the Committee on Government Reform***



Undernourished could mean a lot of things, there are several forms, levels, and causes of malnutrition.

I'm sorry, I really don't understand this. Quarter-pounders come from McDonalds.


Sorry to burst your bubble, but biologists don't know much about how many species there are in the world, in forests, in rainforests, even in a few acres! They can't even tell the population. You know how they try and find out how many bugs live in an area of a forest? They mark off an area and have someone count each thing that walks across the area that is being measured. Many times does the researcher count the same creature twice, three times, four times, or not at all. What if it walks across it, then decides to backtrack, or just happens to walk across it again? There really is no way to tell.

Maybe you can learn more on vegsource.com

* http://www.fsis.usda.gov/Fact_Sheets/FSIS_Import_Procedures/index.asp
** http://canberra.usembassy.gov/hyper/WF990326/epf518.htm
*** http://66.102.7.104/unclesam?q=cach...les/Pierson_USDA.pdf+Import+meat+pounds&hl=en

Sorry, I thought you wanted to have a friendly discourse, not try to refute every point I make whether you have a good argument or not. I am to busy for this type of discussion.

You are correct, I got the stats from vegsource and I can learn a lot more from there and so could you.

Instead of trying to debunk the stats by mixing apples and oranges, or cattle and sheep, why don't you try and find out how and where vegsource came up with them?

 

[Mk]

Sorry, I thought you wanted to have a friendly discourse, not try to refute every point I make whether you have a good argument or not. I am to busy for this type of discussion.

Instead of trying to debunk the stats by mixing apples and oranges, or cattle and sheep, why don't you try and find out how and where vegsource came up with them?

My time is better spent refuting ever point you made.
And I will admit that I was waiting at the USO at Hickham Air Force Base in Hawaii with nothing at all to do, so I refuted EVERYTHING (!)... argument good or otherwise.