Should space exploration be only the developed world’s adventure?


by shashankac655
Tags: adventure, developed, exploration, space, world’s
shashankac655
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#55
Jul21-11, 11:01 PM
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Quote Quote by BobG View Post
I'm not sure what you mean. There are definitely restrictions on transferring satellite and rocket technology to foreign countries. (U.S. Space Entrepreneur Accused of Aiding Iran Satellite Launch). Unless violating those restrictions are what you mean by people stealing the technology.

But the ability to launch objects into orbit definitely means more than just national pride. The ability to launch an object just halfway around the world couple with the ability to develop nuclear weapons gives a country some real geopolitical clout.

A lot of people say that what we need is a cheap way to launch objects into space. Actually, keeping launches expensive is good for US national security. Expensive launches means fewer countries capable of launching objects into space.

None the less, you can't deny technology or keep technology expensive forever.
Ahh so somebody came to my rescue at last! this is what i was trying to say but i lacked suitable words.

India's nuclear weapons program has only two things to do
1)To develop a minimum credible nuclear deterrent against China.
2)To make sure Pakistan doesn't surge ahead with nuclear weapons and missile technology which it borrowed from alleged links with China and North Korea.
And russ was not really wrong, A.Q Khan did steal nuclear technology from the west to start pakistan's Nuclear weapons program and there are several other examples.

India has no intention or any thing to gain by trying to attack Europe or the USA with long range nuclear capable missiles which is a ridiculous thing to even think about and the US knows that but i do consider the concerns of security in the west.

you see when any country has almost unlimited funds and the intention to not let things get cheaper then they seldom think about reducing costs to a significant extent but when a country has very limited funds then it will lead to some attempts to come up with radically cheaper ways to do the job.
shashankac655
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#56
Aug15-11, 10:52 AM
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Quote Quote by russ_watters View Post
Very little in that post has anything to do with your OP. Your OP was claiming practical benefit, not philosophical and political benefit. Frankly, I think national pride is the primary reason most countries have space programs. If that's the reason, fine, but don't try to spin it as actually having tangeable benefit.
i accept that in a few of my posts i did get a little childish but national pride is not only benefit
,it is also about building confidence in the scientific community of developing countries, space technology is challenging,dangerous and complicated and getting involved in such technologies will boost confidence in a nation's scientific community and it can them feel that they are also equally capable as their western counter parts and they can also handle big,complicated and challenging tasks and the developing world can dream of a day when they are no longer dominated by their western counter parts ,this is a important step in building confidence in a nation.
Ryan_m_b
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Aug15-11, 11:00 AM
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Quote Quote by shashankac655 View Post
i accept that in a few of my posts i did get a little childish but national pride is not only benefit
,it is also about building confidence in the scientific community of developing countries, space technology is challenging,dangerous and complicated and getting involved in such technologies will boost confidence in a nation's scientific community and it can them feel that they are also equally capable as their western counter parts and they can also handle big,complicated and challenging tasks and the developing world can dream of a day when they are no longer dominated by their western counter parts ,this is a important step in building confidence in a nation.
I quite disagree. Manned space travel is risky, along the way to developing better technology we are going to loose people. I don't think the Challenger disaster boosted confidence. In addition the huge expense of a space program never generates appreciation during times of economic stress (which nearly all major space program countries are undergoing).

I'm not saying that manned space travel wont be good for public perception, indeed if the space race atmosphere was recreated it would be great but I don't think this is a feasible thing to rely on. Instead focusing on technologies that would be useful on both ground and space would be best as the public would support it for the former and when it's developed enough to make the transition would be best.
Drakkith
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Aug15-11, 04:41 PM
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Quote Quote by shashankac655 View Post
i accept that in a few of my posts i did get a little childish but national pride is not only benefit
,it is also about building confidence in the scientific community of developing countries, space technology is challenging,dangerous and complicated and getting involved in such technologies will boost confidence in a nation's scientific community and it can them feel that they are also equally capable as their western counter parts and they can also handle big,complicated and challenging tasks and the developing world can dream of a day when they are no longer dominated by their western counter parts ,this is a important step in building confidence in a nation.
I understand your goals, but I cannot agree that space exploration is the way to accomplish this. My belief is that it is simply a waste of money and manpower. I can think of a dozen different things that are less costly and would have infinitely more tangible benefits. Also, you seem to expect that if you try you WILL be able to accomplish it. However it is not that simple. As has been shown by the multiple accidents that have occured in space flight to this day, it takes a mindset of extreme safety and reliability to be successful. Not just in the major positions such as astronauts, but from the director of the program all the way down to the companies that sell parts to agencies such as NASA. A single item that isn't checked properly can fail and cause disaster. This mindset is not easily instilled in such a large amount of people.

Your entire mindset seems to be that the western world dominates the non-western world and that spaceflight is a way to "throw off the shackles". I'm sorry but this is not true. You are mistaking spaceflight as a way to improve the conditions of your country. Spaceflight is not a means to an end, it is a result of having the means in the first place.
shashankac655
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#59
Aug18-11, 04:34 AM
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Actually the first mistake I did is that I started this thread on the day before my semester exams .
I could think clearly when I wrote my OP but after that I have just blurted out so many things that I really didn’t intend to say and I ended up irritating one of the PF mentors ,only mege seems to have understood what I was trying to say in my OP.

First you have understand that India is not dreaming about Starswars or startrek or things like building human settlements on the moon and mars and etc. What I meant by investing is space is just about trying to build some self-confidence in our scientific community ,when a little willpower and confidence is achieved research is going to speed up in all other technologies as well. The large human potential available in our fast growing middle class should not be wasted.

What I was trying to say is that nothing is original in modern India ,nothing unique it has become too westernized unlike it’s ancient past ,ancient Indians are known for their accomplishments in mathematics,astronomy ,philosophy and so may other things but if you look at India today ,Indians have stopped thinking all together for a long time but now we have large middle class population(larger than the entire population of the United states) ,we cannot become a replica of the West by just borrowing all the knowledge( I am not saying we shouldn’t) ,we should also try to be ourselves do something on our own without depending on the west too much and become aware of our own capabilities, this is better than becoming a third rate version of you.

I too didn’t think that just investing in space is going to transform the whole nation altogether when I was writing my OP, it’s just that India has not come up with anything on it’s own for a very long time ,Indians have forgotten their own capabilities ,their own history and trying to develop indigenous technologies is only going to be a problem if we decide to spend too much on it ,the fact is we are not spending too much on it,the money spent on research(not just space)is insignificant when compared to developmental programs .(india spent around $80 million dollars on it’s recent unmanned lunar mission compared to that it's $7.7 billion on public welfare in the year 2000 and is growing ever since)
http://www.newsbullet.in/world/52-mo...2015-un-report
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/indi...p-wb-data.html
UN-Report 2011.
Expenditure.
Poverty by 2015.

You have to understand that no country the size of India(with such a divided population) has become developed in just a few years after independence, even China has lot of work to do to to call itself “developed”.Poverty and general lack of development is a problem but it can’t solved overnight.
China is working out on it’s own without too much dependence on the west and India should do the same but I am not saying that India should develop anti-western sentiments like China.
Drakkith
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Aug18-11, 04:16 PM
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Starting small and working up seems to be a good way to start. A few million here and there for small projects should work fine. When you say you want to do space exploration I think many of us are imagining something the size and scale of the apollo program or space shuttle program.
shashankac655
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Aug25-11, 05:05 AM
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Quote Quote by Drakkith View Post
Starting small and working up seems to be a good way to start. A few million here and there for small projects should work fine. When you say you want to do space exploration I think many of us are imagining something the size and scale of the apollo program or space shuttle program.


Quote Quote by shashankac655 View Post
The primary intentions behind the setting up of ISRO(Indian space research organization) was to reduce the dependence on other countries for launching satellites that forecast weather and locate mineral resources and keep track on forest cover and for television etc..but recently ISRO thought of going a bit further but even then it has spent far less money for the lunar mission than what NASA or ESA or other big organizations would have spent for the same mission.

ISRO neither has the capability nor the intention to match NASA or the ESA and other big organizations anytime soon, ISRO’s ambitions and capabilities are modest compared to NASA and everything is done at lowest cost possible even then ISRO is not really so unsuccessful.

Comments and opinions will be appreciated.
If you and other people had read the OP properly before posting in this thread then you wouldn't have imagined something like that.
Drakkith
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Aug25-11, 04:17 PM
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Quote Quote by shashankac655 View Post
If you and other people had read the OP properly before posting in this thread then you wouldn't have imagined something like that.
Perhaps, but I stand by my earlier statements about the money being better spent elsewhere.
shashankac655
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#63
Sep13-11, 04:16 AM
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Quote Quote by Drakkith View Post
Perhaps, but I stand by my earlier statements about the money being better spent elsewhere.
space

And i have clearly justified in my previous post.
Ryan_m_b
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Sep13-11, 04:20 AM
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I agree with Drakkith that money could definitely be better spent in India, especially when you consider that countries like mine donate hundreds of millions of pounds in aid every year. Now I'm not opposed to aid in the slightest but it is a bit insulting when the country you give money to spends money on non-essential things rather than sorting out their own social problems first.
shashankac655
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Sep13-11, 04:33 AM
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Quote Quote by ryan_m_b View Post
I agree with Drakkith that money could definitely be better spent in India, especially when you consider that countries like mine donate hundreds of millions of pounds in aid every year. Now I'm not opposed to aid in the slightest but it is a bit insulting when the country you give money to spends money on non-essential things rather than sorting out their own social problems first.
The money that others Countries are donating are not being spent on our space program.

Let me give the whole history of poverty in India (read the whole article and don't miss the last part.)

poverty in india
Ryan_m_b
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Sep13-11, 04:39 AM
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Quote Quote by shashankac655 View Post
The money that others Countries are donating are not being spent on our space program.

Let me give the whole history of poverty in India (read the whole article and don't miss the last part.)

poverty in india
I don't see your point? Perhaps you could state it clearly. I'm not saying that the aid program pays for the Indian space program however if India reduced it's space budget to 80% of what it is now it wouldn't need Britain's aid. Again I'm not against Aid, I'm just saying that a space agency shouldn't be a priority for a country that has so much poverty (unless there is some very good argument for how said space agency can relieve poverty somehow which I highly doubt).
shashankac655
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Sep13-11, 04:50 AM
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Quote Quote by ryan_m_b View Post
I don't see your point? Perhaps you could state it clearly. I'm not saying that the aid program pays for the Indian space program however if India reduced it's space budget to 80% of what it is now it wouldn't need Britain's aid. Again I'm not against Aid, I'm just saying that a space agency shouldn't be a priority for a country that has so much poverty (unless there is some very good argument for how said space agency can relieve poverty somehow which I highly doubt.
i never said it should be(this question has been asked several times in this thread)

Removing poverty is not the aim behind the space program as i have said before that it has more to do with building confidence in our scientific community and it's about attracting young middle class(390 million) minds towards research in science and technology.The Indian middle class are not really interested in research right now ,it all about jetting jobs and settling in life at least they(people who can afford to think beyond just food and money) will get fascinated and may aim higher.
thorium1010
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Sep13-11, 04:56 AM
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Quote Quote by ryan_m_b View Post
I'm just saying that a space agency shouldn't be a priority for a country that has so much poverty (unless there is some very good argument for how said space agency can relieve poverty somehow which I highly doubt).
I don't know about space exploration, but space agencies with capability to launch sateellites helps to alleviate poverty, monitors weather patterns also communication.

As far as space exploration is concerned its more of curiosity than practical use IMO.
One thing space agencies can help is in building new technologies which may benefit people.
Ryan_m_b
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Sep13-11, 04:56 AM
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Quote Quote by shashankac655 View Post
i never said it should be(this question has been asked several times in this thread)
So you agree with my point? I posted only because I was agreeing with Drakkiths point
shashankac655
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Sep13-11, 05:09 AM
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Quote Quote by ryan_m_b View Post
So you agree with my point? I posted only because I was agreeing with Drakkiths point
Drakkith had an idea(or still has ,like many other people) that India is spending a huge portion of it's GDP on space program and is starving it's own people to death which is clearly not the case .

Space technology can have tangible benefits like satellite launches (commercialization)Antrix and not just national pride.
Ryan_m_b
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Sep13-11, 05:12 AM
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Quote Quote by shashankac655 View Post
Drakkith had an idea(or still has ,like many other people) that India is spending a huge portion of it's GDP on space program and is starving it's own people to death which is clearly not the case .
I don't think he does and in either case that isn't the point I am agreeing with. What I am suggesting is that things like a space program should not get funding (or at least as much funding) if you are a country that relies on large amounts of foreign aid.

The only exception to this is if there is a good reason as to why a space agency should be funded i.e. it will stimulate the economy in a teach-a-man-to-fish kind of way but I really don't see any argument like this for a space agency.
shashankac655
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Sep13-11, 05:21 AM
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Quote Quote by ryan_m_b View Post
I don't think he does and in either case that isn't the point I am agreeing with. What I am suggesting is that things like a space program should not get funding (or at least as much funding) if you are a country that relies on large amounts of foreign aid.

The only exception to this is if there is a good reason as to why a space agency should be funded i.e. it will stimulate the economy in a teach-a-man-to-fish kind of way but I really don't see any argument like this for a space agency.
foreign aid

India's dependence on foreign aid is coming down.


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