When electrons and positrons collide they produce 2 photons

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the process of electron-positron collisions and the resulting production of photons. Participants explore the implications of kinetic energy conservation, the conditions under which photons are produced, and the nature of collisions in quantum mechanics.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that when electrons and positrons collide, they produce two photons of 0.511 MeV each, questioning what happens to the kinetic energy of the particles in this process.
  • One participant argues that energy is conserved, suggesting that all energy from the positrons and electrons is converted into the two photons, referencing energy and momentum conservation laws.
  • Another participant points out that the 0.511 MeV photon energy applies when the positron and electron are at rest, raising questions about how they can collide if they must be moving to interact.
  • It is noted that "at rest" means the particles' velocities are significantly smaller than the speed of light, implying that their kinetic energy is small compared to their rest mass.
  • Participants discuss that the photon energy will be affected by the kinetic energy during the collision, leading to a distribution of photon energies rather than a single spike at 511 keV.
  • One participant introduces the concept of wavefunctions, suggesting that a partial overlap of wavefunctions is sufficient for a collision, using the positronium atom as an example.
  • Another participant corrects a claim about the wavefunction, stating that it does not vanish at the origin and that the decay rate is proportional to the square of the wavefunction at that point.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the conservation of energy during electron-positron collisions, the conditions under which photons are produced, and the interpretation of wavefunctions in quantum mechanics. The discussion remains unresolved with multiple competing perspectives.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations regarding the assumptions about the kinetic energy of the particles and the specific conditions under which the photon energies are defined. The discussion also touches on the effects that may distort the observed photon energy distribution.

IntuitioN
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I was told that when electrons and positrons collide they produce 2 photons of 0.511MeV each. But what happens to the kinetic energy of the electrons and positrons? It just feels to me that the energy is not conserved.

I was told somewhere that the relative KE of the particles to each other is 0, but I don't understand this.

Any help would be greately appreciated.
 
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IntuitioN said:
I was told that when electrons and positrons collide they produce 2 photons of 0.511MeV each. But what happens to the kinetic energy of the electrons and positrons? It just feels to me that the energy is not conserved.

All the energy from is positrons and electrons are 'converted' into two photons. Energy is very much conserved. This is easy to prove when just writing down the energy and momentum conservation laws.

Regards
marlon
 
I think in the other thread anti_crank mentioned that the 0.511MeV photons produced is only when the collision occurs with the positron + electron at rest. But then how do they "collide." Don't they have to move close to each other, therefore they have KE just before collision?
 
IntuitioN said:
I think in the other thread anti_crank mentioned that the 0.511MeV photons produced is only when the collision occurs with the positron + electron at rest. But then how do they "collide." Don't they have to move close to each other, therefore they have KE just before collision?

"At rest" in this context means that the velocities are significantly smaller than the speed of light, so that the kinetic energy is small compared to the rest mass.

You are correct that the photon energy will be shifted due to the kinetic energy in the collision. So instead of seeing a spike at exactly 511 keV, there will be a distribution with some width. Again, it's a small effect.

Note that when you see actual data looking for the 511 line from astrophysical sources there are many other effects that distort the line-shape as well (doppler broadening, etc... There's a long list).
 
IntuitioN said:
I think in the other thread anti_crank mentioned that the 0.511MeV photons produced is only when the collision occurs with the positron + electron at rest. But then how do they "collide." Don't they have to move close to each other, therefore they have KE just before collision?
All that's required is a partial overlap of their wavefunctions to count as a "collision". Think of the positronium atom: in the ground state the electron's wave fcn vanishes at the positron "nucleus" and there is no "motion" as defined clasically - yet the system still decays.
 
zefram_c said:
All that's required is a partial overlap of their wavefunctions to count as a "collision". Think of the positronium atom: in the ground state the electron's wave fcn vanishes at the positron "nucleus" and there is no "motion" as defined clasically - yet the system still decays.

Actually, the wavefunction does NOT vanish at the origin. The decay rate is indeed proportional to the square of the wavefunction at the origin.

Pat
 

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