Is Pursuing Physics and Math a Rational Choice?

  • Thread starter Howers
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In summary: Although this would be much more boring than manipulating some algebraic equations, at least for me).In summary, the conversation discusses the speaker's feelings of being left out while their friends in business and life science are having fun with part-time work and parties. They question the practicality of pursuing a PhD in math and physics and mention the pressure from society to succeed in these fields. They also mention potential career options outside academia and the importance of hard work over intelligence. The conversation ends with the suggestion to consider a career in finance or business instead.
  • #36
I seem to find the problem in Math and Science, there is always more to learn. You enter college is little preparation especially in the US and find you a thrown into a lot of work in order to "catch up" Then you constantly build on what you learn.You not only need to grasp new concepts,but remember the old.I find the people who enter physics or math program and just end up in business dumb,
I think Physics and Math major are "abused". Even with 8 year of education, You are somehow unworthy of doctor,businessman, or lawyer pay even though they are on par in "prestige"
Basically if you enter Physics or Math program for the RIGHT reason, Because you love your subject, Then you are a genius.
 
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  • #37
chislam said:
Little benefit?

Apparently, you don't quite understand the feeling that physicists / mathematicians have when they accomplish something. Not everything in this world is about the money.

Huh? How can you compare money (the standard by which society values your work) to a euphoric feeling that lasts 5 minutes...


I guess what this thread comes down to is, is mathematical physics worth it? Am I struggling becuase I lack aptitude? And can I make a living.
 
  • #38
It is completely logical. Think about it. Why do people want to have money in the first place? So they can get the things they desire. Money is just a tool to find happiness. There are other tools. For someone that really loves physics, academia may be their tool. The real question is:" how much do you love physics/math?" Its an important question because if you have diverse interests such as, physics, math, BMWs, hot women, parties etc, you'll be unable to satisfy them all. If you go for physics/math, you probably won't have the money get a BMW nor the time to chase hot women and vice versa. So now you can see that the most logical decision is to go with what you think will give you the most happiness and see where that takes you. Important Qualification: this is assuming that physicists and mathematicians make enough to feed themselves; got to satisfy the bottom level of Maslow's hierarchy of needs.
 
  • #39
jhicks said:
I said Feynman's *tested* IQ, and I said that because obviously the IQ score didn't correlate much with how accomplished he actually was. As to the moratorium, I'm inclined to agree that this forum shouldn't be used by people for venting their emotions, or at the very least that it shouldn't be done in any forum besides general.

I have an IQ on 138, that doesn't mean I have the creativity or work ethic Feynman had.
IQ doesn't test subject like Math or Physics...Einstein didn't pass the entrance examination to ETH Zurich,...But he revolutionized the world.
 
  • #40
torquerotates said:
It is completely logical. Think about it. Why do people want to have money in the first place? So they can get the things they desire. Money is just a tool to find happiness. There are other tools. For someone that really loves physics, academia may be their tool. The real question is:" how much do you love physics/math?" Its an important question because if you have diverse interests such as, physics, math, BMWs, hot women, parties etc, you'll be unable to satisfy them all. If you go for physics/math, you probably won't have the money get a BMW nor the time to chase hot women and vice versa. So now you can see that the most logical decision is to go with what you think will give you the most happiness and see where that takes you. Important Qualification: this is assuming that physicists and mathematicians make enough to feed themselves; got to satisfy the bottom level of Maslow's hierarchy of needs.
You have me stumpted with that hot women one...

:!)
 
  • #41
If that is more important to you than the hard sciences, then go for business, law, anything. Life isn't perfect, so choose wisely.
 
  • #42
troque is right, You spend 8+ hours at work, That is a least 1/2 the time you are awake. You would you rather be happy or miserable for 40 year that you will work?
It isn't like you will in cardboard box either,You can probably own that BMW if you want.

I like to think, How do YOU want to change the world?
Follow that dream.
 
  • #43
Howers said:
Huh? How can you compare money (the standard by which society values your work) to a euphoric feeling that lasts 5 minutes...
Why do you care how society will value your work?
The feeling that having an enjoyable job causes last much more than 5 minutes. Looking forward to a job you enjoy makes your day. While looking forward to a job you dread, no matter how well paying, will make your day miserable.


I guess what this thread comes down to is, is mathematical physics worth it? Am I struggling becuase I lack aptitude? And can I make a living.
Again it comes down to finding out what you truly enjoy.

Mathematical physics CAN be worth it. But only for some people. It is not for everyone.
I would say you are struggling because you are not sure you enjoy mathematical physics enough to dedicate your life to to it. You can definitely make a living being a mathematical physics. Sure you won't live in luxury, but if you care about that then mathematical physics is not for you.
 
  • #44
Huh? How can you compare money (the standard by which society values your work) to a euphoric feeling that lasts 5 minutes...

as an addendum to the above, studies have shown that the happiness gained by buying a new product is ephemeral. For example, you feel great getting that new laptop, but in a week, you get bored. Look up hedonic treadmill.
 
  • #45
SCV said:
Again it comes down to finding out what you truly enjoy.

Mathematical physics CAN be worth it. But only for some people. It is not for everyone.
I would say you are struggling because you are not sure you enjoy mathematical physics enough to dedicate your life to to it. You can definitely make a living being a mathematical physics. Sure you won't live in luxury, but if you care about that then mathematical physics is not for you.

I do enjoy it, and I would dedicate my life to it. But wealth cannot be over looked. I don't want a BMW and a 4 million villa, but I want to be able to afford nutritious food and support a family. I'm not studying science as a hobby so that I can talk about it on the subway. I'm studying it because I want a career where people will value my skills.

Most people go into medicine because they want to make a difference to individuals inflicted with illness. Medical school is roughly the same amount of schooling and effort as physics. The difference is they have stable careers and are very well compensated.

I'm not going to preach about how money isn't anything, because it is. I want to be able to pay off my loans and afford textbooks. I don't want a 12 hour job like my parents where I stay in debt until I die. Whereas Mr.Hotshot with a Commerce degree is surfing the web at work and looking for a resort to visit for his monthly break.
 
  • #46
chislam, i do understand that feeling, that's why I am a physics student, but that feeling isn't going to give me a comfortable life.i think i would rather have a life wher ei didn't have to worry bout money or job security..thats just me. I udnerstand Hower's feelign that he doesn't want all the BMW's and the houses. Its just you want to have a comfortable life where money isn't an issue. It doesn't mean you're some sort of magalomaniac. If one loves the enjoyment of physics/math and is fine with their situation, more power to em!
 
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  • #47
If you think about grad school and all you can see is six years of hell, you are in the wrong ****ing field.

Also, I think a major advantage of math and science is that there is always something else, further in the distance.
 
  • #48
Howers said:
I'm not studying science as a hobby so that I can talk about it on the subway. I'm studying it because I want a career where people will value my skills.

This does sound to me like you are not terribly passionate about natural science so perhaps your concerns are valid. I surely can not speak for anyone else, but I think that at least for many professional researchers have a passion and consider what they do as more than a work - it is a passion - and I can only figure that without deep comittment/motivation the competition for positions will be even harder.

Maybe a compromise is the engineering route (applied physics or math) is more in line for you? As far as I know most engineering programs (as opposed to science programs) are tuned in for more industrial or commercial fields, and usually developed in communication with needs on the market, rather than pure/basic fundamental research mostly within academica. Maybe throw in some courses on business administration too and I think you'll be pretty attractive.

/Fredrik
 
  • #49
Whatever you do, remember that life is ultimately about balance.
 
  • #50
I think he is just frustrated.
Basically I think TC see his friends in business sleeping and partying and realizing they will make a lot more $$$ then him. He loves science but doesn't think things like pay are fair for the work he put in.
 
  • #51
Howers said:
My only motivation was that I found physics very interesting. I was raised under the premise that hard work will get you a good job, and that is why I enrolled in university. I spent the last 3 years in space with my physics and math equations. Now that I've settled back down on earth, I have come to realize it may all be for nothing - hence the no point.

Your story is self-contradictory. Visibly (as it should be) you did physics because 1) you found it interesting, and 2) it got you "in space" for 3 years. So this was like a 3-year holiday for you. You enjoyed immense intellectual fun while others were thinking of making a living. You went on a "fun" course while others were trying to get the best assets for money and career. If you had an accident right now and died, you would have been the one who had most fun. And then you say that you did physics because "hard work will get you a good job" and that all that was "for nothing". No, it wasn't. You did fun things while others were doing hard stuff to prepare their professional life. You were on a holiday. By going to grad school, and doing a PhD, you can even prolong your "holiday" in fun physics land. You can still enjoy a few more years of pure joy pursuing abstract intellectual challenges while others will have to be confronted with day-to-day reality. Up to you whether you want to have those few extra holiday years. Of course, at the end will come pay day. Then the others will start enjoying the benefits of their investments, while you will have come in from a 10-year long holiday in physics-fun land. But you had fun for 10 years, they didn't. It's the ethernal economic question: immediate consumption and fun or investment in the future. But there might even a very unfair way out: you could get away with having 10 years of physics fun and STILL obtain a reasonably fun job afterwards. Of course, chances are not high, but IF you succeed, you will have a life-time fun with physics. That's maybe worth the gamble, no ?

I don't enjoy school, even though I really like physics. I don't think anybody likes learning to hand in problem sets and pass tests.

? that was the most fun activity I had in my life! If you don't like working out problem sets, what the hell are you doing then ? Hell, I still do some problems from books myself when I get some time, just for fun.


Its an investment to better your future.

Uh ! Not at all. Not more than going on a trip to the Bahama's is an investment in your future: it is a way to enjoy life !

That said, you MIGHT eventually turn your physics education in a kind of asset. But in the first place, it is consumption on the spot of fun time.

(ok, I should maybe be a little bit less sarcastic... but there is some truth in what I say here...)
 
  • #52
Defennder said:
Right. Be reminded that we live in the real world and have to pay bills.

I was trying to get the poster to live in the real world! The only real world is the present. If you spend all your time worrying about the future then you spend all your time worrying. If you are doing physics at University because of your passion for it then you are incredibly lucky! Mainly because you are pursuing your passion, but also because you are pursuing a skill that is in (reasonable) demand and is viewed as eminently transferable. The neatest example of that is financial wizards being described as "quants", this is a direct recognition of the high regard the financial market holds for physics graduates. Also, look at the high demand for physics teachers. My personal path took me into programming/IT work and I've known many other physics graduates who have been snapped up for such posts. I remember one CS graduate complaining to me about science students always getting hired instead of him! So I encourage physics students not to worry about the future because there *is*, without doubt, a good future. Just get on with enjoying your physics & riding out the tough patches. (And I've paid my bills in the real world for thirty years :-)
 
  • #53
Howers said:
I'm not studying science as a hobby so that I can talk about it on the subway. I'm studying it because I want a career where people will value my skills.

You seem to be basing your life on extrinsic motivation rather than intrinsic motivation. A fundamental error. This might help:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/159420148X/?tag=pfamazon01-20
 
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  • #54
vanesch said:
... you could get away with having 10 years of physics fun and STILL obtain a reasonably fun job afterwards. Of course, chances are not high, but IF you succeed, you will have a life-time fun with physics. That's maybe worth the gamble, no ?

Lots of good positive advice until this point vanesch! Why do you think all the fun jobs are only in physics research? Do you think all those teachers, programmers, finance types are suffering jobs that are no fun. As in many walks of life, many are, but (also) many are not! So if you end up having to leave physics-fun-land just plan carefully, and (if necessary) move around until you find another fun land.
 
  • #56
yes i let pressure to publish, and i still feel it now. but that pressure helps one discipline oneself to put his results out there for others to critique and benefit from, and not just sit back and say well i did that.

again as said before, since there is so much pressure to perform, it is essential that one is engaged in an activity some part of which, usually the research itself, is enjoyable.
 
  • #57
Howers said:
You have me stumpted with that hot women one...

:!)

we need more women in physics and maths...
 
  • #58
mathwonk said:
yes i let pressure to publish, and i still feel it now. but that pressure helps one discipline oneself to put his results out there for others to critique and benefit from, and not just sit back and say well i did that.

again as said before, since there is so much pressure to perform, it is essential that one is engaged in an activity some part of which, usually the research itself, is enjoyable.
another question is how much coffee this research adventrue of yours requires you to drain down? (-:
 
  • #59
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  • #60
Howers said:
<snip>
I don't want loads of money. I want a stable job for sacrificing the best years of my life for 10 years of unpaid, over time labour. This isn't knitting class, this is mathematical physics I'm doing here. Yes, after 10 years of school I expect a picnic. Or at the very least a packed lunch.

<snip>

That's the problem, right there- there are no guarantees in life. That's the whole point of making a career choice to do what you like, not to expect some sort of payoff or reward. Becasue there isn't any- not for MDs, either, FWIW.

If you really want society to take care of you as a reward for doing work that society deems beneficial, then you should pick a different career- politics, for example. Finance. Law- and you can make a relatively painless swtich to patent law with a degree in science.
 
  • #61
mal4mac said:
Lots of good positive advice until this point vanesch! Why do you think all the fun jobs are only in physics research? Do you think all those teachers, programmers, finance types are suffering jobs that are no fun. As in many walks of life, many are, but (also) many are not! So if you end up having to leave physics-fun-land just plan carefully, and (if necessary) move around until you find another fun land.

First of all, my post was tongue-in-cheek (or at least, half so). The point was that if you're doing physics essentially motivated by going for a good career, then you're totally deluded. So the motivation must be something else. It's not money, it's not women, it's not partying, so it must be fun. So you do physics essentially out of fun - like you go on a holiday essentially out of fun, right ? That means that in the case you can keep doing physics for the rest of your life, your whole life will be fun - as if you went on a holiday for ever. Of course, that doesn't mean that other things can not be fun too. And yes, even physicists who don't do physics for ever can sometimes secure jobs which still give them a lot of fun.
 
  • #62
Andy Resnick said:
That's the problem, right there- there are no guarantees in life.

I think here we have the solution.

Life is a game - find your objective, estimate your odds and place your bets and learn.

Sure one can ask others for opinion, but there is no getting away from finally forming your own opinion of the odds. And all the time you spend reflecting over where your odds are "correct" your opponents grab market shares, so there is yet anothre choice to make. Wait and think and risk loosing possible gains, or just aim and fire, and learn from the outcome.

/Fredrik
 
  • #63
vanesch said:
You went on a "fun" course while others were trying to get the best assets for money and career. If you had an accident right now and died, you would have been the one who had most fun. And then you say that you did physics because "hard work will get you a good job" and that all that was "for nothing". No, it wasn't. You did fun things while others were doing hard stuff to prepare their professional life. You were on a holiday. By going to grad school, and doing a PhD, you can even prolong your "holiday" in fun physics land.

Just because I find a subject interesting does not mean I have "fun" being at school. Work is work, no matter how stimulating one may find it. I'd rather spend my holiday on a beach with friends rather than working through rigorous physics 24/7. Others are not doing hard stuff, I am doing hard stuff. The only difference is I find my field interesting, whereas they see it as a means to an end (although not in all cases, as experience tells me otherwise).

I don't like working through ridiculously hard problem sets and stressing over tests because of all the pressure and time constraints. The process of sitting down to get them done requires a lot of discipline, because time can be used for more trivial things like tv. I would rather worry about learning something than a GPA, but then that is not why we go to school. I find you "school being a holiday" an extremely weak argument. If people really feel that way, that they are having a blast in school and would rather be there instead of say taking a break and browsing the web from time to time than I may be in the wrong field. I however feel that is rarely the case.

Yes, I love learning how the universe is modeled with math and applying this for myself to everyday things like guitar strings. At the end of the day, I am very satisfied with what I know. But like a musician who can play really well, I imagine there were things he would have preffered to do other than intense training.

(edit: when I said I was up in space with physics I meant detached from the real world. I was just focusing on my studies and assuming everything would work out. Now I realize this may not be the case at all.)

Andy Resnick said:
That's the problem, right there- there are no guarantees in life. That's the whole point of making a career choice to do what you like, not to expect some sort of payoff or reward. Becasue there isn't any- not for MDs, either, FWIW.

If you really want society to take care of you as a reward for doing work that society deems beneficial, then you should pick a different career- politics, for example. Finance. Law- and you can make a relatively painless swtich to patent law with a degree in science.

Assuming MDs don't royally screw up, they pretty much have guarentees set in stone. People don't go into professional programs only for the money either. I have friends law and they really enjoy what they do (well maybe not finance). With physics I feel ripped off, because after 10 years of training I am not even close to being on par. Not to mention the work is much harder, as most of them attested to after taking freshman physics.
 
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  • #64
Perhaps you can switch to an easier, but still somewhat interesting, field and still do physics as an amateur. That way you get rid of the stress.
 
  • #65
To address what I feel are the issues systematically:

Stress and Long Hours factor: Yes, a PhD/Academia is going to be stressful even if you love it, there are going to be time constraints, balancing TA'ing and deadlines, working at evenings/weekends. However is this not similar to most well paying jobs in industry, investment bankers/directors/CEOs/consultants work 70h+ weeks and no doubt are massivley stressed, and probably don't have a half the passion for there work that a typical academic might. They have the displeasure of just doing it as a means to an ends.

Finance: There are going to be big differences here obviously, if you go to gradschool then for the next 6 years you are going to be living on a relative pittance, maybe even getting into debt, following that the postdocs are only going to pay as well as a mediocare job your friends got 6 years earlier! You face a bohemian lifestyle and will be moving from postdoc to postdoc,for just a tiny shot a tenure if you've found out by this time you're actually any good at physics.
You will see your university friends salaries shoot up as they are promoted upwards, get themselves mortgages, nice cars 2.4 children etc.

Family life: you will need to find a partner who is supportive of moving from town to town every three years, kids?

So there is no doubt in my mind that there are sacrifices, and not only that but it is a big gamble...if you do all that and sacrifice so much, in 6 years academia could just spit you back out to industry anyway if you haven't delivered. You are essentially making a bet, gambling the conventional life and its comforts from a shot at making it as a Physicist.

It's not all negative though, the chance to work on something you're really passionate is a rare thing instead of having to run the rat race just to win material things. You will also likely get lots of chances to travel all over the world, and even live in other countries for a number of years, whereas most people will be tied to a company for years. You also get to be around people that share your passion, make friends with similar minded people, even maybe find a partner in, maybe not physics, but academia. Also the academic culture itself is very laid back and not structured like a corporation, another plus in my book.

It goes without saying you have to REALLY love physics to do this, and it is a massive decision you should know all the consequences of before making. You should ask yourself what do you really want out of life? A family, time at home with to go out with friends, a big house, a nice car, fancy holidays, security and routine in a job...or a big challenge, the chance (albeit slim) to maybe do something revolutionary and amazing, to work on something you would work on regardless if you were being funded. I think ultimatley you carry on aslong as you're enjoying it, if that ends you are wasting your time and should get out. It's not like academia is all binding, if after your PhD you hate the guts of physics, you can go get a job in the real world, work for an IB as a quant or something and start making mega bucks to catch up with your friends progression in no time
 
  • #66
Okay, I've only read as far as page 2 here (you guys/gals have written a LOT of LONG posts :bugeye:), so here's my 2 cents (if I read all 5 pages, I'd give you a whole nickel's worth of advice).

My first impression reading the OP is that there are two issues here:
1) A grass is greener on the other side problem of perception
2) Frustration with current coursework

On the first part, even in business, only the "cream of the crop" really make great money, and they DON'T get to spend a lot of time playing when they are in that caliber of career. If you walk around the Financial District in NYC at night...LATE at night...you'll see the cars lined up around the block waiting to take home those high earning businessmen and women, or take them to their expensive hotel rooms because they don't have time to go home. Sure, they have drivers waiting for them, but they're working so late they wouldn't be safe to drive as tired as they are at the end of the day. During tax season, they don't go home. They stay in hotels next to the office.

Every profession is like that. You can work comfortable or flexible hours for not so great pay, or you can work long, stressful hours for better pay. Once in a while, someone stumbles into some great luck and acquires somewhat of celebrity status.

You're more likely to succeed in a field you enjoy...one you have a passion to get up and do every morning for the rest of your working life. The only way you're going to be a top earner in a field is to succeed in it. If your preference is to work shorter hours and have more time to play, keep in mind you will not earn as much, so won't really have the money to spend on playing. It's a catch-22 of adulthood and the working world.

This gets to part 2...do you love the subjects you're studying? Are you getting frustrated because it's getting hard, or are you getting frustrated because you're losing interest and feeling like you're beating your head against the wall to force yourself to keep going? Since business is mentioned in the OP, have you ever taken a business course, as an elective or just to try it out? What about other courses outside your major? What did you think of them? Were your bored out of your mind? Did you find them fascinating? Could you consider getting up every day and doing a job that required using the knowledge from those courses?

Also, what would fit your personality? Do you really LOVE working with other people? Medicine has been mentioned a few times...would you LOVE working with SICK people who are grumpy and miserable and sometimes rude? Would you LOVE spending half your day filling out insurance paperwork? Could you handle the days when someone dies under your care? Could you handle the days you have to tell someone they have an illness you can't do anything to treat other than alleviate a few symptoms while they wait to die? Could you handle getting phone calls in the middle of the night from the patient who forgot to call for a refill on their prescription before all but one pharmacy has closed and needs you to call it in there? It's not like TV where the doctors waltz in, save a few lives, and then go out and flirt with the nurses, wear expensive suits and drive fancy cars.

Do you like peace and quiet to get your work done, or a chaotic, busy, phones ringing all day workplace? Do you need routine to get things accomplished, or do you perform better when you can have a flexible schedule? Do you need someone else to tell you what to do and set your deadlines to be productive, or do you want to be your own boss and set your own hours and schedule? Do you like working as an individual, or as part of a team? Every path you could take has different options that can fit different personalities. Spend time really evaluating yourself and your interests, and then look at what paths fit with that.
 
  • #67
alexgmcm said:
Wasn't it designed to detect mental retardation in children or something?

I learned in psychology that IQ tests is more for measuring the potential of learning in a person. The question is whether you use that potential or not. But my advice is to do whatever you're passionate about and everything will work out. I read awhile back an article concerning whether people feel happy about their lives. The middle classes were actually the happiest with upper class and lower class at almost the same level. Are you really that concerned about having to finish school in a fixed amount of years? You can always take some time off and take a break, do something else? Ya know...school is just an "official" way to learn. But you've been learning outside of school your whole life and shouldn't make it so you HAVE to finish school in x amount of years. I used to think I need to make a lot of money, have to goto med school, etc. Made life no fun at all :P. So now I'm just doing what I'm interested in, physics and computer science. I mean it's still quite a bit of work but I enjoy it much more and don't mind spending so much more time on them ^_^
 
  • #68
hmm i guess we can all agree on one thing: do what makes you the most happest. if ur happy with a good income and job security, and can do the job, go for it! if your into research and you love it, go for it! issue solved!
 
  • #69
Howers said:
Just because I find a subject interesting does not mean I have "fun" being at school. Work is work, no matter how stimulating one may find it. I'd rather spend my holiday on a beach with friends rather than working through rigorous physics 24/7.

Ah ? I didn't. Well, a few days to decompress, yes. But after a few days with friends, I got bored and wanted to read physics stuff again. Usually I took some books with me on a trip, in case I could find some time in between the obliged "having fun on the beach". I changed now, and I can appreciate more of a social life by now, but I still remember that during about 8 years, I only had one thing on my mind: doing physics, because it was such tremendous fun. I knew I was somehow somewhat ruining my future, but it was too much fun to let go. In fact, my dad was a wise guy, and he obliged me to first get an engineering degree before going on a "physics holiday", just to get something to eat when I'd finally grow up :smile:
He was right.
 
  • #70
^^^

What did you do?
Double Major in Undergrad in Engineering and Physics?
 

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