How Does Surrealism Transform Our Perception of Reality?

[kyphysics]

This is surreal!

 

[fresh_42]

RIP the other four eight nobody talks about.

 

[kyphysics]

RIP the other four nobody talks about.

I think I saw 9, but regardless, it's almost like I a dream.

Larger than life. You'd never think it'd happen to him - so young too!

 

[fresh_42]

Yes, early reports were 5 now it's 9, so 7 people whose name was not Bryant. I do not see why this tragedy should be any different from the other thousand people who died today in an accident.

 

[phinds]

Yes, early reports were 5 now it's 9, so 7 people whose name was not Bryant. I do not see why this tragedy should be any different from the other thousand people who died today in an accident.

Well, a LOT more people knew of him than do of us normal folks, so it's to be expected that the news shows will be full of that news.

 

[kyphysics]

Well, a LOT more people knew of him than do of us normal folks, so it's to be expected that the news shows will be full of that news.

It'd be as if Michelle Obama befell that fate, along with one of her daughters.

It's shocking because of her societal status. But, of course, that's not to say any person has more inherent "worth" than anyone else. It'd be just as sad if anyone died like that.

Nonetheless, Kobe's a Hall of Fame great...just retired recently too. Very sad.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Very sad all around. Too young and breaks the family. RIP to all.

 

[fresh_42]

I have to think about a quote I heard these days in a documentation about Nowitzki. He said: "It is surreal, that people ask me for an autograph just because I can net a ball."

He was right. That is surreal, not the fact that a celebrity died in an accident. I really do not see why this should hurt me more than the death of any other person. None of us actually knew him - I think.

 

[kyphysics]

I have to think about a quote I heard these days in a documentation about Nowitzki. He said: "It is surreal, that people ask me for an autograph just because I can net a ball."

He was right. That is surreal, not the fact that a celebrity died in an accident. I really do not see why this should hurt me more than the death of any other person. None of us actually knew him - I think.

I take it you weren't an NBA/basketball fan?

Growing up, he was said to be the closest thing we have to Michael Jordan.

 

[Ygggdrasil]

I have to think about a quote I heard these days in a documentation about Nowitzki. He said: "It is surreal, that people ask me for an autograph just because I can net a ball."

He was right. That is surreal, not the fact that a celebrity died in an accident. I really do not see why this should hurt me more than the death of any other person. None of us actually knew him - I think.

On the forum, there have been recent posts memorializing the deaths of Jim Lehrer, Terry Jones, Gary Starkweather, Neil Peart, and David Bellamy. Why is it that Kobe Bryant gets pushback from this community but not other people with fairly similar careers in entertainment such as Terry Jones or Neil Peart? What's so different about him? I don't particularly care about Neal Peart and his music, but you don't see me going around badmouthing him in his memorial thread.

Kobe Bryant clearly means something to a great number of people. He put a lot of hard work and effort into becoming one of the greatest players in the history of basketball, and while you may not respect that, plenty of other do. Furthermore, in his short post-NBA career, he even won an Oscar for producing an Animated Short about a poem he wrote about his retirement from basketball. He was an extremely talented and smart individual, both on and off the court, and I certainly was looking forward to seeing what other creative endeavors he would pursue.

While I understand that you may not particularly care about people like Kobe Bryant, maybe you should learn to show a little respect.

 

[fresh_42]

Why is it that Kobe Bryant gets pushback from this community but not other people with fairly similar careers in entertainment

Too much honor. I am a member of PF, but I am not "this community", especially if I express my personal opinion.

I take it you weren't an NBA/basketball fan?

Yes and no. Is this a requirement to have an opinion? Yes, because I knew Bryant and why else should I watch a documentary about Nowitzki, and, no, I prefer football. I enjoyed watching Jordan and Pippen though. But this has nothing to do with my opinion, that I find it fundamentally wrong to mourn a celebrity's death and not mention all others.

I accept that my favorite sports channel mentions his death, because it's where it belongs to. It's also o.k. for a short newsline. I do not understand live coverage, breaking news and pretending it was a loss. It certainly is, for his wife and his other children, to whom I really wish all the best in these horrible moments. But the other people had probably a family, too.

Terry Jones

Jones was remembered by scenes. Personally, it was a relief for him to die, because he was dement for quite some time. So I would understand video clips of interesting basket ball scenes with Bryant. But I cannot pretend to feel a loss. He retired 2016! And - as mentioned - I did not know him as a person. It is sad that such things happen, but they unfortunately happened to many people today, too. The fact that I know a name doesn't mean anything.

 

[fresh_42]

maybe you should learn to show a little respect.

Not if it is plain hypocrisy.

 

[berkeman]

I don't think it's hyprocisy. Dying is dying, and the death affects a number of people. In the case of celebrities (especially when they tend to do good charity work that affects way more people than I can affect in my life), that will elicit more tributes.

My initial reaction to hearing the news was negative, because I thought that Kobe was usually the pilot of his private helicopter. My initial thought was "How can he put other good people at risk as an amateur pilot who cannot even handle an in-flight engine failure and reliably land the helicopter with practiced autorotation?" But even though the details are sketchy so far, it sounds now like he did have a pilot separate from himself on this flight, and we'll have to wait to find out why a reported engine failure lead to such a hard crash in open ground like that.

In terms of celebrity deaths, I've been much more affected by the loss of Richard Feynman so many years ago. Losing him in his prime like that, to a disease that we should be smart enough to figure out a cure for is much harder for me.

RIP.

 

[phinds]

In terms of celebrity deaths, I've been much more affected by the loss of Richard Feynman so many years ago. Losing him in his prime like that, to a disease that we should be smart enough to figure out a cure for is much harder for me.

+1 on that

 

[russ_watters]

Not if it is plain hypocrisy.

You could show nothing rather than disrespect.

RIP the other four eight nobody talks about.

Note that none of us would likely even have heard their names if they hadn't been traveling with Kobe Bryant when they died.
[edit] As of the time of this post, the names of the passengers and crew haven't been released, pending ID. So we only know any of them because of friends and family and paparazzi keeping tabs on Bryant.

I do not see why this tragedy should be any different from the other thousand people who died today in an accident.

If you don't understand why people feel like they know celebrities and therefore are affected by their deaths, so be it, but I too think this is an odd/specific time to bring this up. Perhaps a separate thread would have been better, with more of a question than a criticism.

 

[Mary Conrads Sanburn]

KINDNESS
PASS IT ON!

Former NBA Star Kobe Bryant and daughter among 9 killed in helicopter crash near Los Angeles
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...others-dead-in-helicopter-crash-idUSKBN1ZP0QW

 

[fresh_42]

You could show nothing rather than disrespect.

This is not true. The only thing that makes me mad is that one life here is obviously more important than the others. This goes against every single fiber of mine. Just because we know the name? I mourn about Gianna. A 13 year old kid should not die. Nine people lost their lives in that incident. Every single one had a family, and every single one is a tragedy! To emphasize one of them whilst ignoring the others - this is truly disrespectful! I wonder who of us is! I saw Bryant on tv so I'm sad. Who cares the others? They weren't on tv. And that is hypocrisy.

 

[morrobay]

Reports are that there has been very unusual dense fog ( ground fog ) and the visibility was very limited. But how can a pilot drive into the side of a hill with instruments giving elevation ? They must have been flying at a too low altitude to hit those low hills.

 

[russ_watters]

This is not true.

Well of course it's true -- it was your choice to post!

The only thing that makes me mad is that one life here is obviously more important than the others. This goes against every single fiber of mine. Just because we know the name? I mourn about Gianna. A 13 year old kid should not die. Nine people lost their lives in that incident. Every single one had a family, and every single one is a tragedy! To emphasize one of them whilst ignoring the others - this is truly disrespectful! I wonder who of us is! I saw Bryant on tv so I'm sad. Who cares the others? They weren't on tv. And that is hypocrisy.

So again, if Kobe Bryant hadn't been on that helicopter, the story now would be "Nine Unidentified People Die in Helicopter Crash" because the coroner hasn't released any of their names yet. They aren't being ignored, and I guarantee there will be tribute articles for them once their names are released - tribute articles they wouldn't have gotten if they hadn't been attached to Bryant.

Sure, you can see it as unfair that Bryant's name is emphasized, or you can see it as a positive that because they were with Bryant you'll get the chance to mourn the rest that you wouldn't have otherwise had. Or not, since you said before that to you they aren't any more significant than any of the other millions of deaths yesterday.

 

[romsofia]

This is not true. The only thing that makes me mad is that one life here is obviously more important than the others. This goes against every single fiber of mine. Just because we know the name? I mourn about Gianna. A 13 year old kid should not die. Nine people lost their lives in that incident. Every single one had a family, and every single one is a tragedy! To emphasize one of them whilst ignoring the others - this is truly disrespectful! I wonder who of us is! I saw Bryant on tv so I'm sad. Who cares the others? They weren't on tv. And that is hypocrisy.

If both our mothers died on the same day, would you not mourn her death more so than the death of my own? Of course you would! It's natural for you to mourn the death of someone close to you. Just because your mourn the death of your own mother more than the death of mine does not mean your mom was more important. It just means you had an emotional connection with her.

People mourn Bryant's death more so than the others because they had an *emotional* connection with him. He inspired them. It isn't just because he was "on TV", he changed their lives, most of the time for the better. It would not be an understatement to say that Kobe Bryant inspired *millions* of lives around the world to work on themselves.

A quote I enjoy by him is the following:
“There’s a choice that we have to make as people, as individuals. If you want to be great at something, there’s a choice you have to make. We all can be masters at our craft, but you have to make a choice. What I mean by that is, there are inherent sacrifices that come along with that. Family time, hanging out with friends, being a great friend, being a great son, nephew, whatever the case may be. There are sacrifices that come along with making that decision.”

 

[fresh_42]

Or not, since you said before that to you they aren't any more significant than any of the other millions of deaths yesterday.

This is my opinion. To turn it into disrespect is not only wrong, but also a direct insult. It is not that I'm disrespectful towards one, I demand the same respect to all the others, too. And to call me out because of this is the true disrespect. I am sad about Bryant, too, but I didn't forget all the others. If you call this disrespect, then we definitely have a different view. It isn't less sad if someone unknown died only because we do not know their name. O.k. it does hurt me more that a teenager died in comparison to adults. That does not mean I don't care the others. All others, not only Bryant.

 

[DrClaude]

Just as LeBron James passed him on the all-time scoring list...

 

[sysprog]

Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.

Even if we grant that notion in principle, it should come as no surprise or cause of consternation, that the passing of a famous person should fetch more public attention than does the passing of other persons, of ordinary repute, even when the famous person perishes in a common disaster with such other persons, who were presumably equally as important. That's merely part of what 'famous' means.

Some related ideas are expressed in a bit more detail in the following spsp.org article:
Why Do People Mourn Celebrities?

 

[StatGuy2000]

As someone who occasionally watches various sporting events but is not a sports fan of any kind whatsoever (including basketball), I feel a certain sense of sadness over Kobe Bryant's death, but not overwhelmingly so -- it's a footnote in history in my eyes.

But it seems clear that there are many people who Bryant's death had more of an emotional impact, and I don't think there is anything particularly wrong about that.

Just my 2 cents worth.

 

[Ygggdrasil]

Something unique about celebrities is that sometimes their lives and their works serve as common cultural points for connecting people. Yesterday, I took the opportunity of Kobe's death to chat with my college roommate, a big Lakers fan, and remember with him some of the times in college we spent watching Kobe play, including his historic 81 point game. Certainly Kobe's life was not worth more than the other lives that were lost in the crash, but there is value in remembering his life as a means for connecting with others through these shared moments.

FYI, here is a piece with remembrances for all nine victims of the crash from the New York Times. In addition to Kobe and Gianna Bryant, the victims included the pilot, Ara Zobayan; the college baseball coach John Altobelli and Altobelli’s wife, Keri, and daughter Alyssa; Christina Mauser, a basketball coach; and Sarah and Payton Chester, a mother and daughter who lived in Orange County.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/27/...sh-kobe-altobelli-chester-zobayan-mauser.html

 

[Mary Conrads Sanburn]

If We Could Bring You Back Again
By Joanna Fuchs
www.poemsource.com.

If we could bring you back again,
For one more hour or day,
We’d express all our unspoken love;
We’d have countless things to say.

If we could bring you back again,
We’d say we treasured you,
And that your presence in our lives
Meant more than we ever knew.

If we could bring you back again,
To tell you what we should,
You’d know how much we miss you now,
And if we could, we would.

~

 

[TeethWhitener]

RIP the other four eight nobody talks about.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/27/us/who-died-helicopter-crash-kobe-altobelli-chester-zobayan-mauser.html?action=click&module=Top Stories&pgtype=Homepage

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2020/01/27/victims-calabasas-helicopter-crash/

https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/27/us/victims-helicopter-crash-kobe-bryant/index.html

Edit: it is generally considered extremely unethical for journalists to report the names and details of victims before authorities have had a chance to notify family members.

 

[nuuskur]

That is terrible! Condolences to everyone who lost friends or loved ones.

 

[morrobay]

https://nypost.com/2020/01/27/inside-the-final-flight-of-the-doomed-helicopter-carrying-kobe-bryant/

That tragedy should not have happened, even the sheriffs dept had grounded their helicopters because of the marine layer. In good conditions the flight path would have followed highway 101 the major Western most freeway with 4 lanes in each direction. But they turned North East to avoid the marine layer. The last part of path was turning back to the West in direction of destination : Thousand Oaks .I went to High School in that area. It looks like as they entered the marine layer the pilot was disoriented and overshot the 101 and then turned South and hit the hillside. From flight path it is seen that the helicopter was going in opposite direction of destination

 

[morrobay]

https://www.latimes.com/california/...ecomes-focus-of-intense-federal-investigation
Another explanation

 

[BWV]

And the conspiracy theories have started

https://www.dailydot.com/layer8/conspiracy-theorists-qanon-kobe-bryant-death/

 

[nsaspook]

 

[morrobay]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calif...media/File:California_State_Route_118_Map.svg

https://www.latimes.com/projects/kobe-bryant-helicopter-crash-3d-map/

 

[morrobay]

I watched the last NTSB news conference referenced to be following in post #32. The NTSB at this stage is very cautious and do not speculate at all . Looking forward to their preliminary report next week. However the internet , youtube and the news outlets have tens of reports by pilots speculating on the cause of crash.

Because of the marine layer the helicopter went inland and followed interstate 5 North then transitioned to route 118 in NW direction, then headed in SW direction to get to hwy 101 South of Calabasas as can be seen in lower right corner of the top link/map above. So that is how the helicopter got to positions that can be seen in 2nd and 3rd images in second link/flight path.

The pilot is and has been on VFR visual flight rules and now is approaching a very dense marine layer/fog. This pilot is very familiar with the terrain here and just made this exact flight the previous day in good weather (as shown in the link) So at this point he ascends to over 2000 ft to attempt to get over the marine layer and away from the terrain.( one pilot on youtube said the helicopter pilot at this time knew he was "in trouble"

This is the final phase: the helicopter is hovering/climbing. From the interviews with pilots , with no visibility when a helicopter is hovering there is nothing to indicate whether it could be moving forward,backward or sideways. Again the pilots interviewed said this is where he lost control and for unknown reason turned to the left and backward direction while going down hitting the hillside.

 

[nsaspook]