Chain Falling on a Scale: What is the Reading?

In summary: I'm saying?In summary, the problem in this conversation is to determine the reading of a scale when a length of a chain, x, has fallen onto it. The approach involves using the equations for momentum and conservation of energy. Initially, there is confusion about the net force equation and the weight of the falling chain. After discussing it, it is determined that the weight of the falling chain should be accounted for in the external force equation. The final solution is that the normal force from the scale on the chain is equal to 3 times the mass of the chain times the acceleration due to gravity times the length of the fallen chain divided by the total length of the chain.
  • #1
geoffrey159
535
72

Homework Statement


A chain of mass M and length l is suspended vertically with its lowest end touching a scale. The chain is released and falls onto the scale. What is the reading of the scale when a length of chain, x, has fallen? (Neglect the size of individual links.)

Homework Equations


Momentum, conservation of energy

The Attempt at a Solution



Hello, I have checked threads who dealt with this problem but did not understand everything !

After reading different threads, I understand that the problem is to find the normal force from the scale on the chain.

Firstly, the net force on the scale is equal to the time derivative of momentum:

## \frac{dP_x}{dt} = N_x - W_x = N_x - \frac{M}{l}xg##

The change of momentum is

## \left\{
\begin{array}{}
P_x(t) = \frac{M}{l}(l-x(t)) \times (-\dot x(t) )\\
P_x(t+\triangle t) = \frac{M}{l}(l-x(t+\triangle t)) \times (-\dot x(t+\triangle t))
\end{array}
\right. ##

So

##\frac{dP_x}{dt} = -M \ddot x + \frac{M}{l}({\dot x}^2+ x \ddot x ) = \frac{M}{l}g(x-l) +\frac{M}{l}{\dot x}^2
##

because ##\ddot x = g ##.
In order to find ##\dot x^2##, I use conservation of energy on the point mass located at the top of the chain, which is accelerated by gravity:

## \left.
\begin{array}{}
K_0 = 0 ,\ U_0 = \frac{M}{l} g l = Mg \\
K_x = \frac{1}{2} \frac{M}{l}{\dot x}^2, \ U_x = \frac{M}{l} g (l-x) \\
K_0 + U_0 = K_x + U_x
\end{array}
\right\}
\Rightarrow {\dot x}^2 = 2gx \Rightarrow \frac{dP_x}{dt} = 3\frac{M}{l}gx - Mg ##

So

## N_x = \frac{M}{l}gx + \frac{dP_x}{dt} =4 \frac{M}{l}gx - Mg ##

Is that correct?
 
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  • #2
What is N_x in your force equation (dp/dt)? I think there may be an inconsistency in that statement.
 
  • #3
Hello, ##N_x## is the normal force from the scale on the chain
 
  • #4
Ok, so then what's W_x?

**Oops read it backwards.
 
  • #5
It is the weight of the chain on the scale after length x has fallen
 
  • #6
No obviously I'm wrong, the net external force in the system chain-scale is ## N_x - Mg ## and not ## N_x - \frac {M}{l}gx##, so ## N_x =3 \frac {M}{l}gx##,
 
  • #7
Haha, yea sorry about that, I forgot how a scale worked for a minute. I just went through and double check you, it looks good.
 
  • #8
The chain that's still in the air doesn't exert a weight force on the scale.
 
  • #9
yes, but it must be taken into account because it is an external force in the system chain-scale
 
  • #10
Gravity accelerates the chain at a constant velocity. If you drop two balls, one on top of the other (neglecting drag) does on exert a force on the other?
 
  • #11
Also, if you replace your mass/unit length with the entire mass, wouldn't the scale always read more than the weight of the chain?
 
  • #12
I think that in my first attempt I have cheated with the relationship between net external force and momentum.
I am using momentum of the chain-scale system, but don't take into account the weight of the falling chain, but it is an external force.
So without cheating,
## N_x = 3 \frac{M}{l}gx## and not ## N_x = 4 \frac{M}{l}gx - Mg ##
 
  • #13
Doesn't the falling chain have mass (m/l)(l-x)? The chain that's already on the scale has 0 momentum. What do you mean you didn't take into account the weight of the falling chain? Maybe I'm missing something here.
 
  • #14
The definition is net external force = dP/dt.
I used the momentum of the chain-scale system, there is a part that is on the scale at rest, and a part falling.
But I only took into account the weight of the chain on the scale, which is not correct in this system, because the falling part contributes to total external force.
 
  • #15
A way to be 100% sure that It was wrong at first attempt is that ##N_x < 0## for ## 0 \le x \le \frac{l}{4}##, which is not admissible.
 
  • #16
geoffrey159 said:
The definition is net external force = dP/dt.
I used the momentum of the chain-scale system, there is a part that is on the scale at rest, and a part falling.
But I only took into account the weight of the chain on the scale, which is not correct in this system, because the falling part contributes to total external force.
You can get there by looking at the whole system, but it's unnecessarily complicated. All the weigh pan cares about is the speed and density of the chain hitting it.
At time t after release, with what velocity is the chain hitting the pan? What is the rate of change of momentum on those links?

If you want to look at the whole system, that will include gravity acting on the falling part of the chain, and the rate of change of momentum of that part of the chain. These two will balance, which is why you can ignore them.
 
  • #17
From where I'm sitting, I see the scale can read the part that's sitting on it, at rest, definitely. Also, there will be some portion of the chain that has recently come into contact with the scale, and the scale must exert a force greater than the weight force of that segment to slow it down. That's Newtons second law. But I for some reason am not seeing how the top most point of the chain, or the point under that, or... will exert a force on the scale or vice versa.
 
  • #18
haruspex said:
You can get there by looking at the whole system, but it's unnecessarily complicated. All the weigh pan cares about is the speed and density of the chain hitting it.
At time t after release, with what velocity is the chain hitting the pan? What is the rate of change of momentum on those links?

If you want to look at the whole system, that will include gravity acting on the falling part of the chain, and the rate of change of momentum of that part of the chain. These two will balance, which is why you can ignore them.
I'm trying, but I don't understand your reply. Can you restate it? Do you agree with the solution ?
 
  • #19
BiGyElLoWhAt said:
see the scale can read the part that's sitting on it, at rest.
Yes, sorry, I was concentrating on the impact part. I should have written:
All the weigh pan cares about is the speed and density of the chain hitting it, plus the weight of what is already in the pan
geoffrey159 said:
Do you agree with the solution ?
Which solution? It seems to have evolved, and I'm not sure what your current proposal is. At one point you had ##3 \frac{M}{l}gx##, which is what I get.
 
  • #20
I get that too, thank you!
 

1. How does a chain falling in a scale affect the weight measurement?

When a chain falls in a scale, it adds additional weight to the measurement. This is because the chain has mass and is being pulled down by gravity, which is then reflected in the scale's reading.

2. Can the chain's weight be subtracted from the scale's measurement?

Technically, yes, the chain's weight can be subtracted from the scale's measurement. However, this would require knowing the exact weight of the chain beforehand and manually adjusting the scale's reading.

3. How accurate is the weight measurement when a chain falls in a scale?

The accuracy of the weight measurement when a chain falls in a scale depends on the precision of the scale and the weight of the chain. If the chain is relatively light compared to the weight being measured, the impact on accuracy may be minimal. However, if the chain is heavy, it could significantly affect the measurement accuracy.

4. Can a scale be designed to account for a falling chain?

Yes, a scale can be designed to account for a falling chain. This is typically done by integrating a mechanism that can detect when a chain has fallen in the scale and automatically adjust the reading accordingly.

5. How can a falling chain be prevented from affecting the weight measurement?

To prevent a falling chain from affecting the weight measurement, it is important to make sure that the chain is not touching the scale when the measurement is being taken. This can be achieved by ensuring that the chain is securely held above the scale or by using a scale with a protective cover to prevent anything from falling onto it.

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