Computer Illiterate: Venting Frustration for Tech-Savvy People

[ideasrule]

Disclaimer: This post is a rant, and this thread serves no purpose other than letting everybody vent their frustration.

Seriously, how can people be so clueless about technology? If you're 70 years old and have never used a computer before, that's understandable. If you're an adult and rarely use a computer, that might be somewhat understandable. However, if you are a teen who grew up with the Internet, you should not:

1. Ask me repeatedly for the hotkey for cut & paste, promptly forget, then repeat the process 8 or 9 times. For heaven's sake, click on the "Edit" menu and all the hotkeys are right there.

2. Be clueless about how to make a graph in Excel, or how to do a linear regression. How did you ever survive high school? By plotting everything on paper?

3. Not know how to find a printer driver on Google, when the printer is prominently labeled with its model and the driver is on the manufacturer's official website.

4. Not know what operating system you're using, or whether your CPU is 32 or 64 bit, when I try to Google the driver for you
5. Fail to have an operational antivirus program, then complain about getting viruses. Seriously, just Google "free antivirus" and go to the very first result!
6. Not knowing how to find your MAC address is understandable. Failing to Google the answer, then asking me to find your MAC address for you, is not. This is especially true if your computer is a Mac/smartphone, since I've never used either. This is especially, especially true if I manage to find the answer on Google in less than 15 seconds.

These are all real questions that privileged first-world high school or college students asked me. I tried very hard to be helpful and not condescending, but on more than one occasion I could barely resist banging my head on the table.

 

[JaredJames]

1. Ask me repeatedly for the hotkey for cut & paste, promptly forget, then repeat the process 8 or 9 times. For heaven's sake, click on the "Edit" menu and all the hotkeys are right there.

I agree with that.

2. Be clueless about how to make a graph in Excel, or how to do a linear regression. How did you ever survive high school? By plotting everything on paper?

Unless taught, why would you know how? My school didn't teach it until quite late on and then it was only a quick demo and do.

3. Not know how to find a printer driver on Google, when the printer is prominently labeled with its model and the driver is on the manufacturer's official website.

As above, but also people don't realize you can do it. If you don't know what a driver is, you wouldn't know. I know a lot of people who think the installation disc is something special for the printer/user.

4. Not know what operating system you're using, or whether your CPU is 32 or 64 bit, when I try to Google the driver for you

People look at price and possibly a few 'buzz' numbers when purchasing. It's unlikely they'd know the specifics or take note.

5. Fail to have an operational antivirus program, then complain about getting viruses. Seriously, just Google "free antivirus" and go to the very first result!

Understandable, but I'd also add that out of all the setups I've done (there's a lot), the only people to get virus' are those who visit 'dodgy' websites. There are others, who only use a few websites but do so a lot that never even get a sniff of one. So I don't bother with AV software.

6. Not knowing how to find your MAC address is understandable. Failing to Google the answer, then asking me to find your MAC address for you, is not. This is especially true if your computer is a Mac/smartphone, since I've never used either. This is especially, especially true if I manage to find the answer on Google in less than 15 seconds.

I would apply this to a lot of things.

I admit I get a bit miffed when people ask me a question which I then Google for the answer in a matter of seconds - using the exact phrase they used to tell me the problem.

It's only when implementing the fix is a bit tricky or takes a bit of knowledge that I'd accept it.

These are all real questions that privileged first-world high school or college students asked me. I tried very hard to be helpful and not condescending, but on more than one occasion I could barely resist banging my head on the table.

I'd say it's a bad thing to generalise people.

Not everyone grows up learning the things you know about computers. Some people just know the basics and wouldn't know where to start for anything else. It's no different to any other subject. You could apply your above points to any academic subject and they'd be no different.

 

[Upisoft]

7. Not knowing when the computer is turned on.
8. Using your both hands to move the mouse.

 

[JaredJames]

7. Not knowing when the computer is turned on.

Which is why I always start with "is it plugged in?".

Sounds stupid, condescending to most, but it's a sad fact that people overlook this little issue.

8. Using your both hands to move the mouse.

Haven't seen that myself, however I have seen someone trying to move a trackball mouse like a standard / laser one.

 

[jhae2.718]

What annoys me are the people who are proud of being computer illiterate.

 

[Triple_D]

The most screwed up computers I have ever seen, were the ones that belonged to teens who downloaded tons of music, and clicked on every link they saw.

At 53 years of age, I consider myself to be "adequate" when it comes to using a computer. I can pretty much solve any difficulties I run in to. But with that said, I don't want to build, or program a computer. I just want to use it. To me, a computer is nothing more than a tool. I have zero emotional attachment to it. And that tool should be very intuitive, easy to use, and reliable. I shouldn't have to "repair" it on a regular basis. Dumping the PC's and switching to a Mac Pro helped immensely, in that regard.

 

[JaredJames]

You only have to repair often, that which you do not treat well.

 

[Triple_D]

You only have to repair often, that which you do not treat well.

Generally speaking, I totally agree, and have been very conscientious about the care of my tools. Unfortunately, two out of the four PC's I have owned seemed to have had the "ghost in the machine" syndrome. :rofl: The other two have been OK. But I still prefer my Mac to any of them.

 

[DaveC426913]

But with that said, I don't want to build, or program a computer. I just want to use it. To me, a computer is nothing more than a tool. I have zero emotional attachment to it. And that tool should be very intuitive, easy to use, and reliable. I shouldn't have to "repair" it on a regular basis. Dumping the PC's and switching to a Mac Pro helped immensely, in that regard.

Amen brother.

I am still on a PC but I am being converted by the above argument.

You only have to repair often, that which you do not treat well.

Not true. No computer is truly owned by its user. Every piece of software installed takes a piece of the computer and does with it whatever the whims of its programmers wish, often involving tampling on communal areas.

Sure you can argue all you want about the wise and judicious selection of software to minimize this - but it's just matter of degree. No software (except maybe standalone DOS programs) makes a truly clean footprint.

 

[JaredJames]

Not true. No computer is truly owned by its user. Every piece of software installed takes a piece of the computer and does with it whatever the whims of its programmers wish, often involving tampling on communal areas.

Ah of course, users don't install software do they. They don't get a say in the matter. They choose the software. The user dictates what happens. If they install a piece of software they accept the risk involved. That stands true for any OS.

If you install something, visit an unscrupulous website etc, you are responsible. You're not taking care.

If you run something that you don't know how it works (or what it's doing at least) or you work to GIGO without realising you are then it's still down to the user not taking care.

90% of problems I deal with on a daily basis are people who just randomly click links / visit god knows where on the internet and simply download too much crap.

People just don't take care. Something Windows doesn't help.

 

[cobalt124]

1. Ask me repeatedly for the hotkey for cut & paste, promptly forget, then repeat the process 8 or 9 times. For heaven's sake, click on the "Edit" menu and all the hotkeys are right there.

This has nothing to do with technology its just plain lazy.

Be clueless about how to make a graph in Excel, or how to do a linear regression. How did you ever survive high school? By plotting everything on paper?

Being old I object to my children being taught how to use Micrsoft software, there's better things to learn. Learn software tool usage when it's needed. Using paper instead is harmless, as long as you avoid paper cuts.

5. Fail to have an operational antivirus program, then complain about getting viruses.

I have some sympathy, AV programs are not exactly intuitive, except for Microsoft Security Essentials, which IMO so far is slowing down my machine and I don't trust it.

I think these students are just lazy. Pull the rug out and let 'em sink or swim. Dare I say it, bang their heads on the table, you're using yours, don't damage it!

A rant? How about everything and it's dog is open and running on the PC and for some reason it is performing like an arthritic tortoise. Aargh, close down the stuff you are not using.

 

[BobG]

Computers were more fun in the old days when the overwhelming majority of users were illiterate.

I remember the blonde officer asking us why the computer wouldn't read her 5 1/4 floppy disc and we told her it looked like she'd inserted into the slot sideways. She got really mad at that, "How stupid do you think I am?! It won't even fit into the slot sideways!" No, not sideways vertically, sideways horizontally. "Oh. I didn't think of that."

And the two officers that tied up the computer 8 hours a day for one to two weeks trying to type up minutes of our monthly torture session (officially it was called our staff meeting, but it was a very dysfunctional staff). One day they were kind enough to pop their floopy out and to get off long enough for a secretary to use the computer for half an hour or so. You should have seen the look on their face when they got back onto the computer and realized they forgot to save the work they'd done before removing the floppy. That made me very happy.

And the day I thumbtacked someone's floppy disc to their bulletin board. They literally cried. "No, no, look, it's okay! See, I put the thumbtack through the little synch hole in the disc. It will work fine. Just try it." Evidently, he'd had a bad past experience with thumbtacks and floppy discs and it was really hard to convince him it was just a joke and I didn't just trash his floppy.

And, best of all was the worker in our office who'd constantly forget to put the "a:" after the format command. The old Z-100's would default to formatting your entire hard drive if you forgot to specify a drive. I thought that was a particularly cruel innovation on their part. I finally renamed the format command and wrote a Basic program for formatting floppies that made it impossible to format the hard drive. I also made the mistake of putting a lot of humorous comments into the program that the worker found very entertaining.

Well, one day after I'd moved on to a new office, the hard drive controller died and the hard drive had to be restored from the backup discs. I'd never bothered to back up the Basic program I wrote, so the original "format" command came back onto the system. The format happy worker was introducing a new worker to the office and wanted to show him the 'format' program since the new worker was a computer geek and would definitely appreciate it. The new guy thought the worker must be crazy to be telling him to type in format without specifying a drive and tried to talk him out of it, but the worker kept assuring him to just try it - it would be funny as heck!

So the new guy did. And my former coworker practically died in horror and convulsions once he realized his hard drive was being formatted once again. In other words, he was right - it was the funniest thing the new guy had ever seen.

 

[cobalt124]

The hardware wasn't originally designed for home use, so you won't get away with just wanting to use it in the same way as say, an XBox. And Microsoft should have done better to minimise this, especially with the stated aim to put a PC in every home but were presumably more interested in chasing money. Same with Intel. And the rest.

 

[DaveC426913]

Ah of course, users don't install software do they. They don't get a say in the matter. They choose the software.

Don't be silly. It's not like there are two kinds of software in the world: the kind that works perfectly and the kind that does not. And that all you need to do is to choose the one that works perfectly because it has a gold stamp on it.

The user dictates what happens. If they install a piece of software they accept the risk involved. That stands true for any OS.

If you install something, visit an unscrupulous website etc, you are responsible. You're not taking care.

If you run something that you don't know how it works (or what it's doing at least) or you work to GIGO without realising you are then it's still down to the user not taking care.

90% of problems I deal with on a daily basis are people who just randomly click links / visit god knows where on the internet and simply download too much crap.

People just don't take care. Something Windows doesn't help.

Who is talking about unscrupulous stuff?? I'm talking about legitimate programs by brand-name companies that still require babysitting, maintenance, cleanup and troubleshooting.

A user doesn't have access to the myriad things software does to install itself and run. By your logic, the only way to have a computer that is well-behaved is to never install any software on it.

 

[JaredJames]

Don't be silly. It's not like there are two kinds of software in the world: the kind that works perfectly and the kind that does not. And that all you need to do is to choose the one that works perfectly because it has a gold stamp on it.

No ratings on software now? No recommendations?

Like I said though, if you decide to try something then it's down to the user to accept responsibility for things that go wrong. If it breaks something then live with it.

Who is talking about unscrupulous stuff??

I'm not referring to solely unscrupulous stuff. It applies to everything.

I'm talking about legitimate programs by brand-name companies that still require babysitting, maintenance and cleanup.

You mean a user has to put some effort into things? Has to know what they are doing? Oh poor you.

If you want to use a piece of software, you accept what you must do for that to happen. You accept what the software requires and needs of the system and allow it to use it.

Sounds like you want the software to do everything and run perfectly. That isn't going to happen regardless of Windows, Linux or Mac.

A user doesn't have access to the myriad things software does to install itself and run. By your logic, the only way to have a computer that is well-behaved is to never install any software on it.

I don't believe I ever said that. I said a user needs to take responsibility for their actions.

I agree that Windows causes problems that needn't be there, but that doesn't mean that other OS' allow the user to be carefree. You must take care with your tools and look after them. Use them correctly - as they are designed to be, even if it means putting in extra work - and then you won't end up having to repair them all the time.

 

[DaveC426913]

No ratings on software now? No recommendations?

You can choose the highest recommendation you want; that's still no guarantee that the s/w won't dump install folders somewhere or commandeer file extensions, breaking other apps, or require other installs, or need a port through the firewall or leave bloated log files or dump updates in a new folder or any of a thousand other things that are not bugs yet not easily manageable by the average user.

Like I said though, if you decide to try something then it's down to the user to accept responsibility for things that go wrong. If it breaks something then live with it.

Of couse, but that's not what you said. You said if one takes care of their computer, then one should expect little trouble. I contend it is by definition impossible to use a computer without installing some software on it, and that virtually all software has its eccentricities that, cumulatively, require the user to be his own system admin.

I'm not referring to solely unscrupulous stuff. It applies to everything.

So why state the obvious about unscrupulous s/w? I'm contending that even diligent users with scrupulous s/w will encounter the same problems. More useful to address that.

You mean a user has to put some effort into things? Has to know what they are doing? Oh poor you.

Don't be a weiner. Have you been following the conversation? Now you're actually agreeing: ("Yes, they need repair, I just have no sympathy.")

Sounds like you want the software to do everything and run perfectly. That isn't going to happen regardless of Windows, Linux or Mac.

You said if you are careful, it will run just fine.

You only have to repair often, that which you do not treat well.

Implying that if you treat it well, you'll be pretty much headache-free.

Which I objected to. I see that you now are beginning to agree with me: normal use of software requires maintenance. I contend that that maintenance is difficult for the average (intelligent) user.

A car requires maintenance. It needs gas and an oil change. I can handle these (or get it done.) But my car does not require me to change the timing belt once a year. That's beyond reasonable ability of a user.


I'm sure that as a system admin you expect some amount of maintenance of your system. But you're a minority. You don't represent the average user (and by average user I mean average intelligent user, who - despite sticking to the straight and narrow - still needs to go through the hell of reinstalling their apps every year or two, etc.)

 

[JaredJames]

Dave, I think the context of the quote is missing (I should have quoted the relevant part) and I think we have different ideas of what constitutes "treat well".

The context was referring to OS problems including those generated by software. Not general software issues.

I took this quote to be referring to installation and interaction with the OS, hence the response it gained:

I'm talking about legitimate programs by brand-name companies that still require babysitting, maintenance and cleanup.

Added to that, "If you want to use a piece of software, you accept what you must do for that to happen." - aka, what you must do during installation.

"Sounds like you want the software to do everything and run perfectly." - I was referring to during installation, checking whether it will interfere or cause problems with the current installation.

Regardless, I stand by the fact that a user is responsible for everything they do on their computer. I don't accept ignorance as a valid defence (eg not knowing potential consequences of an action).

A diligent user will use a sandbox when testing unknown software. No reason for any problems to be caused.

There are a number of simple things users can do to allow running with no problems.

I will say, updates are one area I'll accept the user has no say in so they could cause problems.

 

[DaveC426913]

I don't see how anything you said changes anything.

My opinion, simply put:

What is expected of the average computer user these days - even a diligent one - in order to get done what they need to get done, requires more system knowledge and maintenance than is reasonable for that average computer user.

 

[micromass]

9. People thinking that the monitor is the actual computer. And thus only buying a monitor and then wonder why the computer won't work...

Yes, this actually happens.

 

[JaredJames]

I don't see how anything you said changes anything.

My opinion, simply put:

What is expected of the average computer user these days - even a diligent one - in order to get done what they need to get done, requires more system knowledge and maintenance than is reasonable for that average computer user.

Fair enough. Think it's best this one is let go.

 

[jhae2.718]

9. People thinking that the monitor is the actual computer. And thus only buying a monitor and then wonder why the computer won't work...

Yes, this actually happens.

:rofl:

 

[cobalt124]

When people don't know where the Enter key is despite there being two keys with Enter written on them.

 

[jhae2.718]

Could someone tell me where the "any key" is?

 

[micromass]

A few computer helpdesk horror stories:

Customer: 'I'm having trouble installing Microsoft Word.'

Tech Support: 'Tell me what you've done.'

Customer: 'I typed 'A:SETUP'.'

Tech Support: 'Ma'am, remove the disk and tell me what it says.'

Customer: 'It says '$PC manufacturer! Restore and Recovery disk'.'

Tech Support: 'Insert the MS Word setup disk.'

Customer: 'What?'

Tech Support: 'Did you buy MS word?'

Customer 'No...'

Once I was walking a gentleman through the steps to do something -- I don't even remember what -- and when we finished, a dialog box appeared. It offered to do what we wanted it to and had a single button -- the OK button. He sat there for a minute and then, frustrated, asked me what he had to do next.

'Tell the computer 'OK,' 'I said.

He leaned forward and said in a loud but clear voice, 'OK'

Customer: 'I'm having a problem installing your software. I've got a fairly old computer, and when I type 'INSTALL', all it says is 'Bad command or filename'.'

Tech Support: 'Ok, check the directory of the A: drive -- go to A:and type'dir'.'

Customer reads off a list of file names, including 'INSTALL.EXE'.

Tech Support: 'All right, the correct file is there. Type 'INSTALL' again.'

Customer: 'Ok.' (pause) 'Still says 'Bad command or file name'.'

Tech Support: 'Hmmm. The file's there in the correct place -- it can't help but do something. Are you sure you're typing I-N-S-T-A-L-L and hitting the Enter key?'

Customer: 'Yes, let me try it again.' (pause) 'Nope, still 'Bad command
or file name'.'

Tech Support: (now really confused) 'Are you sure you're typing I-N-S-T-A-L-L and hitting the key that says 'Enter'?

'Customer: 'Well, yeah. Although my 'N' key is stuck, so I'm using the 'M' key...does that matter?'

 

[Borg]

I'm so glad that I'm not in customer service. That last one would have sent me to prison for sure. :rofl:

 

[ideasrule]

Computers were more fun in the old days when the overwhelming majority of users were illiterate.

I remember the blonde officer asking us why the computer wouldn't read her 5 1/4 floppy disc and we told her it looked like she'd inserted into the slot sideways. She got really mad at that, "How stupid do you think I am?! It won't even fit into the slot sideways!" No, not sideways vertically, sideways horizontally. "Oh. I didn't think of that."

The 5-1/4 floppy could fit in more than one orientation? That seems like a major design flaw! I'm barely old enough to remember the 3-1/2 inch floppy, but from what I recall it could only go in the slot one way--the 7 other orientations didn't work. If I had a 5-1/4 floppy, I would probably have made the same mistake as the blonde.

And, best of all was the worker in our office who'd constantly forget to put the "a:" after the format command. The old Z-100's would default to formatting your entire hard drive if you forgot to specify a drive. I thought that was a particularly cruel innovation on their part.

Ha! I wonder if this is a deliberate prank. If not, well, it's the worst example of fail-safe design I've ever heard about.

 

[ideasrule]

Unless taught, why would you know how? My school didn't teach it until quite late on and then it was only a quick demo and do.

I was never taught how to find Europe on a world map, or that I shouldn't put my hand on a stove, or what a satellite is. I think most people would be very disappointed in me if I didn't know these facts, because they're considered everyday knowledge and you'd expect most people to learn them on their own.

Understandable, but I'd also add that out of all the setups I've done (there's a lot), the only people to get virus' are those who visit 'dodgy' websites. There are others, who only use a few websites but do so a lot that never even get a sniff of one. So I don't bother with AV software.

We're talking about high school and college students here. Visiting 'dodgy' websites is a part of normal computer usage. It's true that the best way to avoid viruses is to avoid these websites, but that's like saying the best way to avoid car damage is to avoid driving. It defeats the purpose of having a car/computer in the first place.

I'd say it's a bad thing to generalise people.

I'm not generalizing. In fact, I'm part of the group I just described; I'm a "privileged first-world high school or college student." A lot of us (but not me) are computer geniuses who can rewrite a kernel and root a ssh server, but a disappointing number don't even know how to operate their computer at a basic level.

 

[JaredJames]

I was never taught how to find Europe on a world map, or that I shouldn't put my hand on a stove, or what a satellite is. I think most people would be very disappointed in me if I didn't know these facts, because they're considered everyday knowledge and you'd expect most people to learn them on their own.

You'd expect that, but if they never have a reason to they never will. If you never had a reason to find Europe on a map (or similar) would you know how?

We're talking about high school and college students here. Visiting 'dodgy' websites is a part of normal computer usage. It's true that the best way to avoid viruses is to avoid these websites, but that's like saying the best way to avoid car damage is to avoid driving. It defeats the purpose of having a car/computer in the first place.

Not quite. If using the internet is like driving, avoiding 'dodgy sites' is akin to not driving your car dangerously.

I'm not generalizing. In fact, I'm part of the group I just described; I'm a "privileged first-world high school or college student." A lot of us (but not me) are computer geniuses who can rewrite a kernel and root a ssh server, but a disappointing number don't even know how to operate their computer at a basic level.

I know very few people who can do that. The majority of people I come across have a very basic understanding of computers - if that.

I am also a "privileged first-world high school or college student." and it certainly isn't a case of "a lot of us" being able to do those things. I think everyone here will support that.

No schools here teach it and you wouldn't come across it until university - the choice of such a subject would indicate an interest in the subject matter.

 

[russ_watters]

Some of those I'd let go, but the printer drivers thing is pretty unforgivable to me. It's not much less basic than learning the difference between a left and right click.

I used to help people online and I had this one woman who was a programmer, but was having trouble getting a modem to work. After a while, we concluded that she had somehow managed to wedge the PCI modem into an AGP slot, which is pretty impressive considering they aren't mechanically compatible!

 

[JaredJames]

Some of those I'd let go, but the printer drivers thing is pretty unforgivable to me. It's not much less basic than learning the difference between a left and right click.

Again, how would you know what a driver is from the word go? Most people stick in the disc and it's done for them. If the disc vanishes they become a bit stuck.

I had a guy explain how he'd bought a 2 computers and 2 identical printers and he'd managed to install one printer on the one computer with the disc but couldn't install the second printer on the second computer because he'd lost the second printers disc. :uhh:

I used to help people online and I had this one woman who was a programmer, but was having trouble getting a modem to work. After a while, we concluded that she had somehow managed to wedge the PCI modem into an AGP slot, which is pretty impressive considering they aren't mechanically compatible!

Blimey, I'm impressed.

 

[DaveC426913]

I was never taught how to find Europe on a world map

Europe and maps have been around for several orders of magnitude longer than computers. They pervade not only our daily lives, but our history, our lore, our fairy tales.

As someone who has spent more than a decade in usability, I can tell you that
1] computer-use is waaaay less common knowledge than you think, and
2] unlike the rest of the real world, computers have the ability to break away rapidly and dramatically from usage models that preceded them (affordance: the ability of an object to show how it is to be operated - doorknobs have high affordance. Floppy disks have low affordance.)