Did working as a MechE help you learn about tools in a machine shop?

[timmeister37]

TL;DR Summary

This is a question strictly for Mechanical Engineers: Did working as a mechanical engineer help you learn about the existence of tools in a machine shop and how the tools in a machine shop work? By tools in a machine shop, I am asking about tools that a machinist would use such as a lathe, a milling machine, a drill press, etc.

The first career that I tried to have was as a mechanical engineer. I majored in mechanical engineering at a university, but I failed out of the university.

I've always been curious as to exactly what most mechanical engineers do most of the time. I imagine that the vast majority of the time, mechanical engineering consists of doing very white collar work such as doing mathematics and physics, but I think that many engineers probably become familiar with the tools in a machine shop because of the mechanical engineering work that they do.

When I was a freshmen at the university, I had an engineering graphics class or some sort of class about how to draw and diagram stuff on a computer. One day my professor had a machinist come into the class and tell the class about "malicious compliance." The machinist said that sometimes the worst thing that he could do to an engineer is do exactly what the engineer had instructed the machinist to do in a diagram or something. The machinist coming into our class and talking to us made a big impression on me. It gave me the impression that perhaps many or most engineers work closely with machinists in the mechanical engineering work that they do.

Did working as a mechanical engineer help you learn about the existence of tools in a machine shop and about how the tools in a machine shop work?

When you were working as a mechanical engineer, have you ever worked with machine tools that a machinist would use such as a lathe, milling machine, or a drill press, etc. ?

In your experience as working as a mechanical engineer, did you ever work closely with machinists?

If you majored in mechanical engineering at a university, did you ever work with machine tools for your mechanical engineering curriculum?

Please share any interesting anecdotes that are relevant to this discussion.

 

[JLowe]

I'm interested to hear the replies, because in my experience, the answer would be probably not really. There's no real substitute for working in the machine shop or something equivalent and experiencing first hand how the field tools work. In my experience a lot of things change between the engineering phase and the building phase for reasons very similar to this.

In a lot of cases, the reasons are financial. As in, yes, you can technically buy and make a tool to do exactly what the engineer wanted, but it's not worth the cost or the trouble, so let's just get on with it, call it a day and move on to the next job.

Edit: And at the end of the day, no one cares as long as everybody makes money. Assuming no safety violations, which is egregious, but everyone knows this and don't want to be liable, so that's rarely a problem.

 

[Lnewqban]

Did working as a mechanical engineer help you learn about the existence of tools in a machine shop and about how the tools in a machine shop work?

Yes.
You learn a great deal from experienced operators, if you understand that they know the how (better than you will ever know) and you know the why of operations and processes.
If you are willing to learn and keep your ego small, you can discover the extraordinary experience accumulated by these persons day after day of hard work.

Yes, that experience will improve the designs of any engineer, which will improve the quality of the products, the productivity, the life of the tools and the trust of the operator on those designs.
I was still learning from those remarkable operators (each of them) after working with in that huge and complex machine shop for ten years.

When you were working as a mechanical engineer, have you ever worked with machine tools that a machinist would use such as a lathe, milling machine, or a drill press, etc. ?

Yes.
If you are trying to specify something new to an experienced operator, you better try it yourself the day before, after everybody has gone home.
At that point you must be proficient and safe with that machine.

In your experience as working as a mechanical engineer, did you ever work closely with machinists?

Yes.
It was an excellent experience, very humbling in many cases, especially when I was a freshly graduated knowing-all engineer.
They laughed to my face when seeing some of my early designs, ...and with good reasons, as I learned when I gained more practical experience.
What looks reasonable on paper can be unfeasible or unreasonably difficult or expensive to achieve.

Their stories of accidents around machines, as well as their scars and missing fingers strongly encouraged me to respect the machines, the tools, their power and their capability to hurt.
I also witnessed some sad accidents, which made me more aware about the importance of safe operations and handling or heavy parts.

If you majored in mechanical engineering at a university, did you ever work with machine tools for your mechanical engineering curriculum?

Yes, but limited to a few basic machine tools in our lab.
I learned how to calibrate, maintain and repair those machines.
I had a moped back then, and they allowed me to fabricate many spare parts for it, which were very difficult to buy in my country.

 

[The Fez]

The short answer is that as engineers, we never know enough about craft work, not only Machinists, but Pipe Fitters, Mechanics, even the guys who operate and maintain the HVAC system you are designing. Beyond ME, EEs need to listen to the electricians, CEs have to talk to the guys who are actually forming the rebar, etc. We all need to listen and learn from the guys in the field. Even when you are "engineering," sometimes you need to swallow your pride and reach out and say "I have a really challenging problem. Is there an easier way to do this?" As an added bonus, establishing collaborative relationships helps a lot when you do have to say "What you're doing is wrong from an engineering perspective, and you need to do it this way."

 

[timmeister37]

The short answer is that as engineers, we never know enough about craft work, not only Machinists, but Pipe Fitters, Mechanics, even the guys who operate and maintain the HVAC system you are designing. Beyond ME, EEs need to listen to the electricians, CEs have to talk to the guys who are actually forming the rebar, etc. We all need to listen and learn from the guys in the field. Even when you are "engineering," sometimes you need to swallow your pride and reach out and say "I have a really challenging problem. Is there an easier way to do this?" As an added bonus, establishing collaborative relationships helps a lot when you do have to say "What you're doing is wrong from an engineering perspective, and you need to do it this way."

Your short answer is a very interesting response, but could you give me the long answer please?

 

[gmax137]

I learned about machine tools in eigth-grade shop class. sadly most school districts gave that up years ago.

 

[Dr.D]

I had been doing woodwork and some metal work as a kid long before I went to college.

About 40 years ago, when I was teaching Theory of Machines to junior level ME students, I got an interesting comment on a teaching evaluation. A student complained that, "After taking this course, I'm no more able to talk to my auto mechanic than I was before." The course was all about mathematical description of real machines and the computer solution of those descriptions, but the student evidently had different expectations/hopes.

 

[The Fez]

Your short answer is a very interesting response, but could you give me the long answer please?

The long answer is we will never know as much as the people who are using the machinery day in and day out, so we need to collaborate. (Wait, that's an even shorter answer, sorry.)

 

[hutchphd]

It was compulsory to take the shop course to get any advanced physics degree. As I recall it was a few (maybe 5) afternoon sessions in the machine shop taught very well. I'm sure it was worth it the shop guys because it reduced the level of stupid mistakes they would need to deal with. I learned a lot. Want me to cut you a thread on the lathe...?

 

[MRFMengineer]

It kind of depends what area of ME you want to work in, but if it is at all related to design and manufacturing, get machine shop experience any way you can. Hands on experience will give you a huge advantage when it comes to designing parts for manufacturing.

If you have access to a machine shop, try to get in and make some parts. In a professional setting, make friends with the machinists and fabricators. Always better to get their opinion as early as possible. Our machinist attends all ME design reviews and provides feedback.

Personally, I worked in a design build shop in college, got design and machining experience. Then I worked on student projects in the school machine shop and eventually became a "shop master" and safety course instructor.

When I went into my first job, I had free access to the machine shop to build parts or modify them. Nothing makes a boss happier than when problems can be fixed in real time. Again, depends where you work.

 

[trainman2001]

I worked for 15 years teaching shop skills to a few thousand people, besides starting out as an industrial arts teacher in high school. In my work I had the pleasure to work closely with both engineers and the folks on the factory floor. I counseled newly hired engineers on how to work successfully in the non-academic environment. I formulated several concepts, much of which is common sense.

The primary mission of the mechanical or design engineer is NOT to come up with unique or interesting designs, but to come up with designs that can be manufactured in such a way as to generate the highest performance and profitability for the company. That goal cannot be reached unless the engineer has an intimate understanding about what makes manufacturing tick. While what I'm describing may seem obvious, I also spent many years on process optimization projects and was never surprised by the lack of understanding that operating units in a company had for other departments, nor understood what those departments required from them to be successful.

The quality movement created the vehicle to create this understanding, but it must be reinforced and nurtured constantly so silos don't regrow and parochial thinking doesn't creep back in.

The best product and manufacturing engineers have some level of experience working within the manufacturing arena. They designed products and processes that could be implemented with the least amount of pushback. And they removed this resistance by developing working relationships with the folks that had to implement their ideas.

The very best example of this relationship was with a senior design engineer and the tool and die maker with whom he partnered. They were two sides of the same coin. I remember clearly watching the engineer and the machinist hovering over the Hardinge Tool Room Lathe mutually deciding how to make a specific cut. As a result, this designer's products were the most manufacturable, longest lasting in the field and easiest to service. It was no accident. Every aspect of his designs understood explicitly what the manufacturing limitations would be and how to negate them.

And at the same time I was witness to its inverse: an electronic pressure transmitter designed by engineers with no direct manufacturing experience who created a product, that while produced, was difficult to manufacture, and had enormous failure rates in the field.

Since the engineer's mission is creating good products, it's not enough to have a good design, the engineer must be able to get others to use that design effectively. That implies a set of interpersonal skills that may or may not be in the initial job spec or in the curriculum at the engineering school. My grandson is a sophomore at U of IL's engineering and I'm going to inquire if they are given the opportunity to develop the interpersonal role that engineers must play in an organization. This is especially acute since the engineer with at least one college degree must interact with those often with less formal education. The engine discounts that experience they have at their peril.

The skills trades person has something that the starting engineer may not have. He's seen what happens in the field. He knows instinctively what can go wrong and if there is a close relationship will enjoy being part of the discussion to impart that experience with the engineer. I worked in the mechanical technician department at American Electronic Labs every summer throughout my college education I watched with awe a group of masters who could do almost anything with metal. The engineers that took advantage of that expertise were more successful as defined by my previous statement of the engineer's mission. And it was one of those engineers who set me straight very early in my career.