Difference between d/dt and d(theta)/dt? Why is it dr or ds/dt?

  • #1
Anonymous001
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TL;DR Summary
In a physics pdf about kepler laws of motion I found these things. I also solo-learned calculus recently so I am not used to notations.
Screenshot 2023-08-13 150550.png
Screenshot 2023-08-13 150650.png


So, first of all, why and how are we taking the derivative of the vector r or s as d/dt if t is not a parameter of the equations?

Second question is what is the difference between d/dt(r) and d(theta)/dt(r) and also between d/dt(s) and d(theta)/dt(s)? Like, both of these appear at the bottom of the second image (and further in the pdf) and I don't see a difference.

P.S.:I attached the whole file to this post just in case.

Edit: Also, why is the orbit described as R=(r*sin(theta);r*cos(theta))? Isn't that a circle? Shouldn't it be considered an ellipse, parabola or hyperbola or anything else? What I mean is that there is drawn an ellipse but the vector form describes a circle. Why?
 

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  • #2
Anonymous001 said:
So, first of all, why and how are we taking the derivative of the vector r or s as d/dt if t is not a parameter of the equations?

The planets are moving, i.e. they change position in time ##t##. Therefore ##r\, , \,s,## and ##\theta## change in time, i.e. are functions dependent on time. It is implicitly assumed without noting ##\vec{r}=\vec{r(t)}\, , \,\vec{s}=\vec{s(t)},## and ##\theta=\theta(t).##

Anonymous001 said:
Second question is what is the difference between d/dt(r) and d(theta)/dt(r) and also between d/dt(s) and d(theta)/dt(s)? Like, both of these appear at the bottom of the second image (and further in the pdf) and I don't see a difference.
## \dfrac{d}{dt} f(t) = \dfrac{df(t)}{dt} = f'(t) =\dot{f}(t) ## are all different notations of the derivative of the function ## f=f(t) ## with respect to the variable ##t## that is usually used for time.

Here are even more notations:
https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/the-pantheon-of-derivatives-i/


Anonymous001 said:
Edit: Also, why is the orbit described as R=(r*sin(theta);r*cos(theta))? Isn't that a circle?
It is only a circle if the radius ##r## does not change in time.

Anonymous001 said:
Shouldn't it be considered an ellipse, parabola or hyperbola or anything else? What I mean is that there is drawn an ellipse but the vector form describes a circle. Why?
It describes an ellipse if the radius ##r## changes.
 
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  • #3
fresh_42 said:
The planets are moving, i.e. they change position in time ##t##. Therefore ##r\, , \,s,## and ##\theta## change in time, i.e. are functions dependent on time. It is implicitly assumed without noting ##\vec{r}=\vec{r(t)}\, , \,\vec{s}=\vec{s(t)},## and ##\theta=\theta(t).#### \dfrac{d}{dt} f(t) = \dfrac{df(t)}{dt} = f'(t) =\dot{f}(t) ## are all different notations of the derivative of the function ## f=f(t) ## with respect to the variable ##t## that is usually used for time.

Here are even more notations:
https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/the-pantheon-of-derivatives-i/
It is only a circle if the radius ##r## does not change in time.It describes an ellipse if the radius ##r## changes.
Thanks a lot, it really helped. I would have one more question as I went further into the proof. If ##r## changes in time, why does it say that we use a notation ##L=r^2*\frac{d\theta}{dt}## and ##L## is constant? Why is it constant if ##r## changes in time?
 
  • #4
Anonymous001 said:
Thanks a lot, it really helped. I would have one more question as I went further into the proof. If ##r## changes in time, why does it say that we use a notation ##L=r^2*\frac{d\theta}{dt}## and ##L## is constant? Why is it constant if ##r## changes in time?
##L## does not only depend on ##r.## It also depends on ##\theta .## The combination is constant. It goes like this:

The velocity of the planet is a vector. In our case, a vector in the plane where the planet orbits the sun. It means: two-dimensional. The vectors ##\vec{r}## and ## \vec{s}## build a coordinate system of this plane. We can therefore express the vector ##\vec{v}## by its components, its parts of the vectors ##\vec{r}\, , \,\vec{s}.## The equation is
\begin{align*}
\vec{v}=\dfrac{dr}{dt} \cdot \vec{r} +r\cdot \dfrac{d\theta}{dt} \cdot \vec{s}\tag{2}
\end{align*}
Now, the change of velocity per time is acceleration. This yields (see the calculation in your .pdf)
\begin{align*}
\vec{a}=\underbrace{\left(\dfrac{d^2r}{dt^2}-r\cdot \left(\dfrac{d\theta}{dt}\right)^2\right)}_{=a_1(t)}\cdot \vec{r} +\underbrace{\left(2\cdot \dfrac{d\theta}{dt}\cdot\dfrac{dr}{dt}+r\cdot\dfrac{d^2\theta}{dt^2}\right)}_{=a_2(t)}\cdot \vec{s}\tag{*}
\end{align*}
where ##\dfrac{d^2r}{d^t}=\ddot{r}(t)## and ##\dfrac{d^2\theta}{dt^2}=\ddot{\theta}(t)## are the second derivatives with respect to time.

Next, we look at Newton's law of gravity, where ##G## is the gravitational constant and ##M## the mass of the sun, ##m## the mass of the Earth, and ##\vec{r}## the coordinate direction of the force.
$$
F=-\dfrac{G\cdot M\cdot m}{r^2} \cdot \vec{r}
$$
and his second law of motion, which states that a force is determined by
$$
F=m\cdot \vec{a}
$$
These two equations give us (##m## cancels)
\begin{align*}
-\dfrac{G\cdot M}{r^2}\cdot\vec{r}=\vec{a}
\end{align*}
This means we have two different ways to describe the acceleration
$$
\vec{a}=\left(-\dfrac{G\cdot M}{r^2}\right)\cdot \vec{r}+ 0\cdot \vec{s} =a_1(t)\cdot \vec{r}+a_2(t)\cdot \vec{s}
$$
However, the two directions ##\vec{r}## and ##\vec{s}## form a coordinate system of the plane of motion, the orbital plane. This means we can directly compare their components:
$$
\vec{a}=\underbrace{\left(-\dfrac{G\cdot M}{r^2}\right)}_{=a_1(t)}\cdot \vec{r}+ \underbrace{0}_{=a_2(t)}\cdot \vec{s}
$$
We thus have the two equations
\begin{align*}
-\dfrac{G\cdot M}{r^2}&=a_1(t)=\dfrac{d^2r}{dt^2}-r\cdot \left(\dfrac{d\theta}{dt}\right)^2\tag{3}\\
0&=a_2(t)=2\cdot \dfrac{d\theta}{dt}\cdot\dfrac{dr}{dt}+r\cdot\dfrac{d^2\theta}{dt^2}\tag{4}
\end{align*}
Finally, just for fun, let us differentiate ##r^2\cdot\dfrac{d\theta}{dt}.## This yields by the product (Leibniz) and chain rule
\begin{align*}
\dfrac{d}{dt}\left(r^2\cdot\dfrac{d\theta}{dt}\right)&=\dfrac{d}{dt}(r^2(t))\cdot \dfrac{d\theta}{dt} +r^2(t)\cdot\dfrac{d}{dt}\left(\dfrac{d\theta}{dt}\right)\\
&=2\cdot r(t)\cdot \dfrac{d}{dt}r(t)\cdot\dfrac{d\theta}{dt}+r^2(t)\cdot\dfrac{d^2\theta}{dt^2}\\
&=r(t)\cdot \left(2\cdot \dfrac{d}{dt}r(t)\cdot\dfrac{d\theta}{dt}+r(t)\cdot\dfrac{d^2\theta}{dt^2}\right)\\
&=r(t)\cdot a_2(t) = r(t)\cdot 0 = 0
\end{align*}
This means that ##L:=r^2(t)\cdot\dfrac{d\theta}{dt}## has a zero derivative, i.e. is constant in time. Neither the radius nor the angle is, but ##L## is. Only constant functions have zero derivatives.
 
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1. What is the difference between d/dt and d(theta)/dt?

The notation d/dt represents the derivative with respect to time, while d(theta)/dt represents the derivative with respect to the variable theta. In other words, d/dt is used when the independent variable is time, while d(theta)/dt is used when the independent variable is theta.

2. How do you calculate the derivative of a function with respect to time?

To calculate the derivative of a function with respect to time, you would use the chain rule. This involves finding the derivative of the outer function, and then multiplying it by the derivative of the inner function.

3. Why is it dr or ds/dt instead of just d/dt?

The variables r and s represent different quantities, such as distance or position. Therefore, the notation dr or ds/dt specifies that the derivative is being taken with respect to a specific variable, rather than just time.

4. Can you explain the meaning of the derivative in terms of motion?

The derivative with respect to time represents the rate of change of a quantity over time. In terms of motion, it can represent the speed or velocity of an object, as well as its acceleration.

5. How does the notation for derivatives differ between physics and mathematics?

In physics, the notation for derivatives often includes units, such as m/s for velocity or m/s^2 for acceleration. In mathematics, the notation is more general and does not include units. Additionally, in physics, the independent variable is often specified in the notation, while in mathematics it is assumed to be the variable of differentiation.

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