Dual gender singular reference in English

[Zeteg]

I realized some time ago, that there was no singular term that refers to both genders! This is really quite annoying, since I've been using "him/her" quite a bit, and it gets tedious.

Am I mistaken, and there actually is one, or can we all just agree on one? :D:D:D:D:D

I propose "xem". There needs to be more words in English that start with X anyway :D

 

[franznietzsche]

Nope there isn't one.

Tough luck.

A lot of people, if referring to a specific person, but not wanting to give anything away will say : "This person, they..." except that still violates the persons privacy because we now know they're a person. And that they have mutliple personalities. Very intrusive pronoun usage. So we need a gender-species-mental illness neutraul pronoun.

Or we could just suck it up and get back to work...

 

[Hurkyl]

Someone beat you to it. It's not standard english, but some already use things like 'e as a third person pronoun replacing he/she. I don't remember the others for sure.

 

[Zeteg]

Darn it.
Well, I think dictionaries should introduce a formal word :)

 

[Moonbear]

Some use s/he, but I find that horribly tacky looking. I'd like to go back to the old days when "he" really meant "he or she." A lot of people use "they." I do at times myself, but it's wrong, and I know it's wrong, but easier than he/she/it.

 

[plover]

A lot of people use "they." I do at times myself, but it's wrong, and I know it's wrong, but easier than he/she/it.

Actually this is not wrong, it's been part of the English language for at least a couple of centuries. It's just become more common. This is not to say that this usage is always appropriate or is an entirely adequate solution to the linguistic issue as currently configured. However, the only reason I've ever come up with as to why people think it's wrong is that it superficially resembles a PC kluge.

I've always thought English could just adopt the non-gendered third person pronoun 'hän' from Finnish, but somehow I doubt the idea will ever catch on... (even though English does need more umlauts)

 

[the number 42]

Some use s/he, but I find that horribly tacky looking. I'd like to go back to the old days when "he" really meant "he or she." A lot of people use "they." I do at times myself, but it's wrong, and I know it's wrong, but easier than he/she/it.

'They' is correct, and not to be associated with being PC.

Zeteg: why do you want to gender neutralise anyway? Is it for a good reason, or just bowing to feminist crankery?

 

[honestrosewater]

Zeteg: why do you want to gender neutralise anyway? Is it for a good reason, or just bowing to feminist crankery?

I run into this problem most often when I don't know the gender of the person I'm referring to. As in, "the number 42 says [?] likes cupcakes." Using "they" doesn't work. It doesn't agree with its verb. And using a plural verb is confusing. The number 42 says they like cupcakes. They who?
I like 'e.

 

[Chi Meson]

I run into this problem most often when I don't know the gender of the person I'm referring to. As in, "the number 42 says [?] likes cupcakes." Using "they" doesn't work. It doesn't agree with its verb. And using a plural verb is confusing. The number 42 says they like cupcakes. They who?
I like 'e.

In normal speech in various dialets of English, "they" is used as a gender neutral singular pronoun, and it is used without confusion. The rule that it is "wrong" is the same as the rules that say "ain't" ain't a word, and a preposition is something you can't end a sentence with.

THese rules are propagated by prescriptive linguists who think that the English language arrived on Earth complete and intact one spring morning.
Edit: Gosh that sounds meaner than I intended! Let me add levity by sticking in a smiley .

Hmm, that didn't work. How about :shy:
What's that one supposed to mean anyway?
How about


Hey check it out! The brady bunch!



:shy:

 

[honestrosewater]

Chi Meson,
Yes, I know the difference between prescriptive and descriptive rules. (levity) One of my favorite quotes is

"This is the sort of bloody nonsense up with which I will not put."

Or whatever he actually said.

"They" is often used to refer to a singular noun. But it is still clearly (descriptively) wrong to pair "they" with a singular verb. In my example, "they likes" is clearly wrong; It sets off alarm bells in your head. "They" is still a plural pronoun, by descriptive and prescriptive rules.
But using different verbs (one singular and one plural) as in "Tom says they like cupcakes" signals that the two nouns are not referring to the same thing because "Tom" refers to only one thing. The plurality of "they" is given away by its plural verb despite its intended meaning. "Tom" refers to one thing, "they" refers to more than one thing, so they do not refer to the same thing.
This is less obvious in other situations. For instance, "Everyone thinks they are right." "Everyone" is a singular noun, but it can refer to more than one thing (it is an indefinite pronoun) so the problem is not as obvious.
Do you see my point? It's when "they" is used to refer to a definite noun (I don't think it's called a definite noun, but I mean a noun referring to only one thing) that the problem arises.
Well, most of that was my rambling opinion. Sorry, I'm not used to having to think in GD.

 

[franznietzsche]

Or you could just pick one of 'he' or 'she' and use that indiscriminately until corrected by the person and told what there gender is. That's what i would do, be as arbitrary as possible, just to annoy any english professors.

 

[the number 42]

Or you could just pick one of 'he' or 'she' and use that indiscriminately until corrected by the person and told what there gender is. That's what i would do, be as arbitrary as possible, just to annoy any english professors.

Yes. I like this suggestion a lot. I don't see the 'they' thing as an issue, and what the hells wrong with using 'he' for a person with external gonads, and 'she' for a person with internals? (Note: it is considered polite to ask before checking). I think the whole thing is a feminist-inspired red herring. Or am I allowed say herring? Should I say 'fish' so as not to offend anyone?

The cupcake issue: "The number 42 says... 'yes' to cupcakes". QED.
Lesson: Always say yes to cupcakes.

 

[the number 42]

Hey check it out! The brady bunch!

:shy:

Chi! How refreshingly mental. Never get help for whatever condition caused you to think this up.

 

[Dooga Blackrazor]

We at Physicsforums could make up a word and try to get it into circulation. The easiest method I know is s/he. It's actually not that inefficient.

 

[Moonbear]

We at Physicsforums could make up a word and try to get it into circulation. The easiest method I know is s/he. It's actually not that inefficient.

That works until you get to possessives, then his/hers gets annoying quickly.

The answer for everyone is, yes, this is something that arose out of feminism, and is one of the things I think didn't need to be mucked about with. It used to be perfectly acceptable to use he or his as pronouns when gender wasn't known, and everyone understood it was intended to be gender neutral. Then the rabid feminists (I distinguish normal feminists, such as myself, from rabid feminists, who are somewhat irrational in their demands) came along and decided all the books that used "he" as a pronoun were sexist because they excluded all the "shes." What a waste of effort. The whole Miss, Mrs., Ms. thing was lost on me too...please, just call me Dr. I do laugh when telemarketers call asking for Mr. Moonbear (oooh, then I have a field day with them, mostly because I don't like telemarketers anyway), but if you call me by any other title, I generally respond and don't bother correcting the speaker. What do I care if someone calls me Mrs. or Miss? It's still better than "Hey, you!" I think I'll start correcting them and telling them all, "It's Princess Moonbear." Actually, I usually just correct them by telling them my first name. I'm not a big fan of titles.

 

[Gokul43201]

Or perhaps, if 'they' sounds incongruous, maybe extending the use of 'it' from being a non-human pronoun to also a gender neutral (human) pronoun might fix it. After all, 'it' does get used to refer to a person under some circumstances, where the gender is unknown or unimportant, such as, "I don't know who it is." It's also useful that 'it' comes with its own possessive : 'its'.

Nah ! 'It' wouldn't catch on...it would be accused of expressing a sense of inhumanity..or something like that.

A : (pointing at weird looking shoes) Whose shoes are these ?
B : (pointing at gender dubious third person) It's its.

 

[Moonbear]

Gokul, I get myself in enough trouble referring to babies as its. Unless their diaper is off, how am I supposed to know otherwise?

 

[Gokul43201]

Gokul, I get myself in enough trouble referring to babies as its. Unless their diaper is off, how am I supposed to know otherwise?

This new rule will save you tons of embarrassment...you should be pushing it, not resisting !

 

[0TheSwerve0]

I just refer to everyone as "it"...

 

[franznietzsche]

I just refer to everyone as "it"...

/\
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Look at "it"!

 

[Math Is Hard]

My anthropology textbook uses "s/he". I'm sure the authors are doing all they can to make this a mainstream convention. I don't mind "s/he" so much, but "him/her" is still awkward to me.

To your point, Moonbear, if I don't know my teacher's title I just address the instructor as Dr. If I am going to err, I try to at least make it a flattering error.

I must admit though, if a teacher introduces him/herself as Dr. Suchandsuch, it really annoys me when students later address the teacher as Mr. or Ms.

 

[the number 42]

My anthropology textbook uses "s/he". I'm sure the authors are doing all they can to make this a mainstream convention. I don't mind "s/he" so much, but "him/her" is still awkward to me.

Anthropology? Didn't Margaret Mead have to retract her famous early research on gender neutrality in Papua New Guinea because it was inaccurate i.e. gender roles were not culturally relative in the way she was suggesting. Trying to do the same with language is equally misleading and redundant.

I must admit though, if a teacher introduces him/herself as Dr. Suchandsuch, it really annoys me when students later address the teacher as Mr. or Ms.

Fair enough; they [spontaneous use of the word] had to work hard for the title, and to call them Mr or Ms is to negate this.

Interestingly, unlike academia the level above being a 'doctor' in medicine is the surgeon, who is called Mr, Mrs or Miss in the UK. So if you say to your surgeon after your successful appendix transplant: "Thank you Dr Smith", don't be surprised if they scowl like a radical feminist addressed as 'Mrs'.

 

[Moonbear]

Interestingly, unlike academia the level above being a 'doctor' in medicine is the surgeon, who is called Mr, Mrs or Miss in the UK. So if you say to your surgeon after your successful appendix transplant: "Thank you Dr Smith", don't be surprised if they scowl like a radical feminist addressed as 'Mrs'.

I always thought that was fittingly appropriate to "demote" the title of surgeons. Most are the equivalent of car mechanics for people, IMHO, and too many seem to leave the residents doing all the work (at least in the US system)! But now I know, if you want an honest assessment of a surgeon's skills before going under the knife, ask one of the anesthesiology residents. They see everything and know who goes to sleep in the corner while the residents are operating and who actually is right there in charge of the situation during the entire operation.

But that's aside from the topic.

 

[Chi Meson]

I don't know why people are so against "they" as the gender neutral singular pronoun, especially when it is used regularly in spoken conversation. The argument over the "singular vs. plural" does not seem to be a problem with the singular/plural "you." Through context we can figure it out. And the verb agreement is already odd:

"I have"
"You have"
"He has-she has" but "they have"


"we have"
"you have"
"they have"

When you look at it, it's the "he she it" that is irregular.

A comment about "s/he." My linguistics professor thought this idea was
"s/hit."

Getting back to "prescriptive linguistics": it never works. YOu can't force any rules on a community of a language, you can only describe the rules that arise (that's "descriptive linguistics").

Whenever a linguist wnats to know what a rule is for a certain language, they simply listen to the language as it's being spoken. THe rules reveal themselves.

 

[Chi Meson]

Chi Meson,

"They" is often used to refer to a singular noun. But it is still clearly (descriptively) wrong to pair "they" with a singular verb. In my example, "they likes" is clearly wrong; It sets off alarm bells in your head. "They" is still a plural pronoun, by descriptive and prescriptive rules.
But using different verbs (one singular and one plural) as in "Tom says they like cupcakes" signals that the two nouns are not referring to the same thing because "Tom" refers to only one thing. The plurality of "they" is given away by its plural verb despite its intended meaning. "Tom" refers to one thing, "they" refers to more than one thing, so they do not refer to the same thing.
This is less obvious in other situations. For instance, "Everyone thinks they are right." "Everyone" is a singular noun, but it can refer to more than one thing (it is an indefinite pronoun) so the problem is not as obvious.
Do you see my point? It's when "they" is used to refer to a definite noun (I don't think it's called a definite noun, but I mean a noun referring to only one thing) that the problem arises.
Well, most of that was my rambling opinion. Sorry, I'm not used to having to think in GD.

The "alarm bells" is the standard reaction that prevents a linguistic rule from taking over. We don't say things often because it "just doesn't sound right."

Taking your point (a good one, this is a polite argument ) a step further:
"Everyone thinks they are right" could be argued to be singular in that the subject is "every ONE." Just as "none" is a singular pronoun meaning "not one," we say (properly) "None thinks he is right." But alarm bells ring furiously at that, so we'd rather say "Nobody thinks they are right."

We are still referring to the singular "not one" person, but "they has already slipped in as the pronoun.

The rule can be interpreted as following a "gender-specific" vs. "non-specific" verb ending, where first-person singular has four options: masc, fem, neutral, and non-specific.

 

[tribdog]

Hey check it out! The brady bunch!



:shy:

I believe that you have the Angel in Cindy's spot. Have you forgotten the time she made fun of the way that bully talked after Peter knocked his "toofth loofse"? Also didn't she do a porno after the show was cancelled?

 

[tribdog]

the way I see the pronoun problem being solved is to simply use a comma, space or awkward pause.
Tribdog's a jerk. He/She/It has no respect for the English language.
becomes
Tribdog's a jerk, has no respect.

 

[honestrosewater]

Chi Meson,
Yes, I agree. My objection to "Tom says they like cookies" is that it "doesn't sound right". Of course, if most people used it, it would sound right to most people (myself included). Unfortunately, using it introduces ambiguity in situations like "What desserts do Tom's friends enjoy?" "Tom says they like cookies."
I don't think either option is necessarily better; They both have drawbacks. Creating new words has drawbacks too. Until the problem is resolved, maybe I'll just have to be creative and rephrase. "Some people say they like cookies, and Tom is one such person."

 

[Chi Meson]

I believe that you have the Angel in Cindy's spot. Have you forgotten the time she made fun of the way that bully talked after Peter knocked his "toofth loofse"? Also didn't she do a porno after the show was cancelled?

"My blood runs cold
my memory has just been sold,
Na na na na na na..."

 

[Gokul43201]

"My blood runs cold
my memory has just been sold,
Na na na na na na..."

Despite having heard that Centerfold song a gazillion times, I have no idea who sang it.

 

[Math Is Hard]

Despite having heard that Centerfold song a gazillion times, I have no idea who sang it.

J. Geils (sp?) Band

 

[Math Is Hard]

oh, and good luck getting that tune out of your head for the rest of the day. I know I'm stuck with it!

 

[Gokul43201]

Ah, okay...thanks for that...I can't think of any other albums/songs by J Geils Band, yet I'm familiar with the name

I wonder why.

 

[tribdog]

Freeze Frame

 

[Chi Meson]

oh, and good luck getting that tune out of your head for the rest of the day. I know I'm stuck with it!

Dancing queen
Young and sweet only seventeen.
Dancing Queen
Feel that beat on the tamborine, oh yeah.


Why do you
Fill me up
Buttercup
only to let me down.
You mess me around
but worst of all
You never come over when you say you will.
But I love you still...


Everybody was Kung Fu Fighting...


Who ever knew I could be so cruel!