- #211
pftest
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- 0
Im afraid not. As i explained earlier:nismaratwork said:
Im afraid not. As i explained earlier:nismaratwork said:...And FlexGunship just finished explaining why and how that statement is false.
There is a gigantic amount of ESP studies with positive results. No matter how sloppy these studies have been done, you cannot claim that they are an accumulation of evidence for the non-existence of ESP.
nismaratwork said:HA!
.. do you think someone wouldn't snap up Randi's 1mil USD? ..
alt said:Do you suppose though, that is someone indeed had psychic ability, that they would rush to prove it to Randi, with all the associated publicity and all ?
I would think that's the last thing they'd do if they had a brain.
pftest said:Im afraid not. As i explained earlier:
I did prove it immediately, see my ganzfeld quotes. This is all in response to your view that sensory deprivation tests have been "done to death" and do not produce positive results. Quite the opposite is true.nismaratwork said:Well, yes... you SAID that, but unless you can prove it you've got nothing. Flex explained why those results are NOT indicative of ESP.
I don't know what the experiment is that you are describing here, but i do know that there also many brainscan ESP experiments with positive results.pftest: To your point about MRIs... yeah, that's my POINT. If you could demonstrate a psychic talent, the means to see WHATEVER is happening in terms of blood-flow to given regions. That... doesn't... happen. In fact, if you put someone who TRULY believes they're psychic, much as someone suffering from 'Hysterical Blindness' is convinced of their inability to see... you see a BIG difference:
-The person who can see, but doesn't KNOW it:
1.) We see reactions in the brain up to the point of CONSCIOUS visual processing, but we can see that the person is unconsciously processing visual data.
2.) They don't lie about what they're seeing or not.
-The person who claims to be psychic:
1.) Just looks like someone telling a story if they really believe it.
2.) Partial Complex Seizures or other abnormalities: their 'psychic' power is just aura.
3.) NOTHING.
pftest said:I did prove it immediately, see my ganzfeld quotes. This is all in response to your view that sensory deprivation tests have been "done to death" and do not produce positive results. Quite the opposite is true.
I don't know what the experiment is that you are describing here, but i do know that there also many brainscan ESP experiments with positive results.
pftest said:I did prove it immediately, see my ganzfeld quotes. This is all in response to your view that sensory deprivation tests have been "done to death" and do not produce positive results. Quite the opposite is true.
I don't know what the experiment is that you are describing here, but i do know that there also many brainscan ESP experiments with positive results.
thorium1010 said:MRI scans and imaging do not prove ESP. They just indicate the brain is processing information either from stimuli or that there is a thought process in processing information.
In other words different parts of the brain are involved for different type of thought process or sensory or stimuli processing.
The "proof" here is in the context of me proving that ganzfeld tests have been done with positive results. I wasnt being ask to prove ESP or produce reliable peer reviewed evidence, just like i wasnt being asked to prove that extra terrestrial UFOs visit earth.thorium1010 said:MRI scans and imaging do not prove ESP. They just indicate the brain is processing information either from stimuli or that there is a thought process in processing information.
In other words different parts of the brain are involved for different type of thought process or sensory or stimuli processing.
ESP cannot be visible on fMRI, because even normal experiences arent visible on fMRI. I pointed this out to you earlier when you were talking about ESP "mysteriously evading confirmation in a world of fMRIs and other imaging techniques". You might as well have said that watching television and smelling onions "mysteriously evades...".nismaratwork said:He knows all of this by his own admission, but apparently chooses to ignore the fact.
pftest said:ESP cannot be visible on fMRI, because even normal experiences arent visible on fMRI. I pointed this out to you earlier when you were talking about ESP "mysteriously evading confirmation in a world of fMRIs and other imaging techniques". You might as well have said that watching television and smelling onions "mysteriously evades...".
correlation of what kind of neural activity. No mainstream research would accept this as positive result for sensory perception. Also there is a matter of coincidence ? sample size ? mainstream article?As for the brainscan ESP tests i mentioned, they were about pairs of people that were sensory isolated from each other, yet when one of them was visually stimulated, the other was found to have correlated neural activity
pftest said:ESP cannot be visible on fMRI, because even normal experiences arent visible on fMRI. I pointed this out to you earlier when you were talking about ESP "mysteriously evading confirmation in a world of fMRIs and other imaging techniques". You might as well have said that watching television and smelling onions "mysteriously evades...".
fMRI measures the brain, not experiences. Experiences are only known subjectively. Even if we were to accept the idea that brainactivity equals consciousness (which is a metaphysical assumption), fMRI still does not visualise experiences or let you experience what the scanned person experiences.nismaratwork said:This isn't the place to argue for your personal beliefs in the supernatural, unless you can provide scientific evidence for that belief. You seem not to understand what the standard of evidence, or burden of proof is. I strongly recommend that you re-read the agreement you made when signing up for this site; maybe another one is for you.
That is, unless you have some shred of evidence that, "ESP cannot be visible on fMRI", and then... "normal experiences aren't visible on fMRI"... are you on drugs? What is it that you think a FUNCTIONAL MRI is and does?! You're measuring blood flow to specific regions of the brain during a number of NORMAL (whatever that is) events. You also seem to have some notion of what ESP is, and THAT it is... again... proof?
If "not visible on fMRI = non-existent", then that would mean consciousness does not exist, which is the end of empiricism and thereby all knowledge gained through science. It also means elementary particles do not exist (they also do not show up in fMRI scans).thorium1010 said:The fact that it is that it cannot be visible on fmri is that it does not exist. Now if we cannot measure or cannot repeAT THE SAME EXPERIMENTAL RESULTS makes it unlikely to exist. Positive results can have a number of explanations.
pftest said:If "not visible on fMRI = non-existent", then that would mean consciousness does not exist, which is the end of empiricism and thereby all knowledge gained through science. It also means elementary particles do not exist (they also do not show up in fMRI scans).
fMRI only shows brainactivity. If ESP happens, then fMRI still will only show brainactivity. As Andrew Newberg once put it: "it levels the playing field". Whether you are seeing a dog, a purple unicorn or god himself, the fMRI will only show the brainactivity.thorium1010 said:You are twisting the argument . Don't mix up consciousness with ESP. ESP is a perception and it should produce like other stimuli like visual perception produces a signal on Fmri.
You have also once again failed to show credible evidence for ESP.Again you fail show any credible evidence for ESP ( which in my opinion is hyped up). Dont argue about consciousness - show evidence for ESP.
pftest said:<snip> [says ridiculous things] <snip>