Germany vs Italy: Time for the Fireworks!

[DM]

Outstanding game!

 

[Pyrrhus]

Excellent Game

 

[Reshma]

Wow, great game! Complete Italian domination from the beginning.

 

[shmoe]

Excellent refereeing!

These guys need to stop taking dives. :grumpy:

And what's this grabbing the head business?

Heck I kissed ball a few times - didn't stop to worry about it!

No kidding. All too often you touch an Italian player and they cover their faces with their hands and fall over. I see two possibilities on the face covering- they are either sissies and don't want anyone to see them cry in pain over such minor touches (or harsh winds) or they are hiding in shame from their disgracefull actions.

I didn't see much diving from Germany. There was a nice moment when Klose was taken down (by a clean tackle) in the box and his immediate reaction was to regain his footing and give chase. A nice play for someone I've seen do the swan dive more than once. Germany did have a strong tendency to flap their arms after every tackle appealing for a foul when they should have just been giving chase (burned into my brain as a youth-let the ref call the game and don't stop until you hear the whistle). Germany's biggest fault though was playing like they had already won the game on penalty kicks (which they almost surely would have) when there was still about 5 minutes to go.

 

[Astronuc]

I didn't see much diving from Germany. There was a nice moment when Klose was taken down (by a clean tackle) in the box and his immediate reaction was to regain his footing and give chase. A nice play for someone I've seen do the swan dive more than once. Germany did have a strong tendency to flap their arms after every tackle appealing for a foul when they should have just been giving chase (burned into my brain as a youth-let the ref call the game and don't stop until you hear the whistle). Germany's biggest fault though was playing like they had already won the game on penalty kicks (which they almost surely would have) when there was still about 5 minutes to go.

Yeah, I didn't notice much if any diving from the German players.

I don't ever remember getting a serious sliding tackle, although I would get hit, more like collide with someone, while going for ball. If I got knocked down, I'd just get up a play - even if I had a bloody nose.

I think only once I got an elbow in the side of the head. But when that happened, I just kept playing. Having played American and Victorian rules football as a teenager - I was used to getting hit - particularly blindsided. Actually the worst contact was someone coming down on my leg and foot when we both went for a ball in the air. His shoe scraped down my leg and he landed on my foot, and he then bounced off me since I had been running until we made contact. The ref stopped the game. We we both fine - it looked much worse than it was.

Someone made a comment that 'diving' is ruining the sport (football), and someone esle was complaining about the theatrics, i.e. the way the players act when they get tackled or hit. Shame for football, if that's the case. :grumpy:

 

[shmoe]

I've been dropped many times playing soccer, only a handful of times have I stayed down as a result. Pulled my groin in a tackle once, crawled off the field and layed face down in the grass for about half an hour in agony before the painful limp home. Worst part of any injury is the down time you're supposed to have to recover, but then playing injured anyway. I've been pretty fortunate though, the scariest incident was probably the cleat scape high up on the inner thigh, a little too close to home base for comfort.

Most of the fields I used to play on were a small amount of tough weeds over a crappy sandy/dirt mixture. My shins were generally scraped raw and covered in blood from sliding (mostly towards the outside that's not so protected by shin guards) I had developed a nice spot on my left leg where hair would no longer grow. It's taken years of playing on nicer turf for it to start growing back in.

The flopping is definitely hurting popularity. When the highlight reel shows a game decided by a very soft looking penalty in the box, how many hockey players with toothless grins are going to tune into the next match?

 

[Anttech]

I hate to ruin your "negative sledging of football" party here. But Football, is getting more popular, not less.

 

[shmoe]

I hate to ruin your "negative sledging of football" party here. But Football, is getting more popular, not less.

I did not say the overall popularity of football is in a decline. Without any doubts there are potential viewers who stay away because they can't stand the theatrics==> it hurts the popularity.

I'm making an assumption here that ditching the acting won't cause people to turn away. Maybe this is wrong, maybe some people actually watch for this part of the game but I can't imagine why.

 

[George Jones]

I hate to ruin your "negative sledging of football" party here. But Football, is getting more popular, not less.

I agree with shmoe - here in North America people take a dim view of all the "unmanly" flopping that has been on display in the World Cup, and it certainly turns a lot of North Americans off football.

To be sure, flopping occurs in, e.g., ice hockey and basketball, but there is nowhere near the same amount of flopping, rolling around, and clutching at "injured" body parts.

What happens in high-level football is embarrassing - there's no other way to put it.

I'm speaking as a North American who, for the most part, enjoys watching football. Many North Americans that I know watch a few games, get totally turned off, and don't come back.

 

[Anttech]

Yes you are making a big assumption based on whatever media you are watching and based on your own opinion of football. Not only are you assuming that this is hurting the game, but you are contriving this assumption based on what you 'think' is diving. I am sure you would be argued against quite consistantly over this issue alone.

Regardless If you were to come here, you would kinda notice how popular football is. I was watching the Portugal v France game in Brussels with ~ 7,000 people (maybe more) at a street party, in Belgium!

 

[Anttech]

N.America, has never had a large football following. I mean you hardly even have a decent league structure to talk about. What is the average attendance at a super bowl league, or whatever u call it (Top division)? I would be interested to know. The popularity in America for your perception (Are the commentators going on about this the whole time too?)of a diving culture may indeed harm its popularity in the states, but, elsewhere the fact it isnt. Hell even monks are watching :)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/5128542.stm

 

[shmoe]

Yes you are making a big assumption based on whatever media you are watching and based on your own opinion of football. Not only are you assuming that this is hurting the game, but you are contriving this assumption based on what you 'think' is diving.

This is NOT an assumption. I know many, many sports fans who won't watch football because of it's reputation for flopiness. FACT-some people are turned away by the diving. Get it?

I do make the assumption that regular fans won't be turned off if they removed the acting. Do you think that's unreasonable? Would you stop watching?

I am sure you would be argued against quite consistantly over this issue alone.

Contact that wouldn't put a 10 year old kid on the ground yet drops a 180 lb professional athlete with superb conditioning and balance. There's my definition. Heck, remove the "contact" word and you still have enough wind-based falls in some games to turn people away.

Regardless If you were to come here, you would kinda notice how popular football is. I was watching the Portugal v France game in Brussels with ~ 7,000 people (maybe more) at a street party, in Belgium!

I will reiterate- I am not making a statement about the overall global popularity of football. I am claiming that some viewers are turned away because of footballs reputation. This is definitely true in Canada and the US.

The in-game announcers in Canada make no mention of the popularity. We are much more fortunate than fans in the US- we get the BBC feed and don't have to put up with those espn guys

 

[Anttech]

This is NOT an assumption. I know many, many sports fans who won't watch football because of it's reputation for flopiness. FACT-some people are turned away by the diving. Get it?

You said that the "floppiness is hurting popularity" THAT is an assumption! Period, you can't prove it, and you have already admited that the opposite is the case, that it is getting more and more popular, THAT is a fact! Perhaps the rate of popularity increase in your community would be better if there wasnt the "floppiness" Can you live with that ?

Contact that wouldn't put a 10 year old kid on the ground yet drops a 180 lb professional athlete with superb conditioning and balance. There's my definition. Heck, remove the "contact" word and you still have enough wind-based falls in some games to turn people away.

Exageration? yeap I have read umpteen times about how much diving Italy have been doing, its funny, because the all the media I read seem to indicate that they have not been doing this.

The in-game announcers in Canada make no mention of the popularity. We are much more fortunate than fans in the US- we get the BBC feed and don't have to put up with those espn guys

Good for you, and credit that you are forming your own, yet misguided, oppinion's not reguritating some (soar grapes?) ESPN commentators nonsence.

 

[George Jones]

Yes you are making a big assumption based on whatever media you are watching and based on your own opinion of football.

I base my remarks on what I see. I don't have cable or satellite TV, so I get only two (CBC and CTV) local channels, neither of which shows the World Cup. I have watched a number of games on the TV in the food court of the mall that is across the street from where I live. This TV is played without sound, so I watch the games (including instant replays) without hearing any "bias" from the commentators. I see substantially more diving than I do in hockey and basketball.

Regardless If you were to come here, you would kinda notice how popular football is. I was watching the Portugal v France game in Brussels with ~ 7,000 people (maybe more) at a street party, in Belgium!

I understand how popular football is in Europe, but my previous post was about the way North Americans (whose heritage doesn't include a country in which football is popular) react.

The Italians in Toronto are going crazy - blocking off streets to have street parties, etc.

I love watching the World Cup for the same reason that I love watching international hockey - when national teams play, the skills on display, both individual and team, are nothing short of astonishing. This nowithstanding, I think that the amount of acting on display in World Cup is also nothing short of astonsihing. No one can convince me otherwise.

 

[Anttech]

Well you are entitled to your opinion, I am entitled to dissagree

Why are comparing 3 completely different sports, anyway. There is no point in comparing Football to Hockey or Basketball. They are completely different sports (Obviously), there is no grounds to compare them.

If you don't like watching football because you don't 'seem' to understand the concept, then that's fine, watch basketball. I can't stand ice hockey, I don't understand the game and for me it is boring to watch.

 

[shmoe]

You said that the "floppiness is hurting popularity" THAT is an assumption! Period, you can't prove it, and you have already admited that the opposite is the case, that it is getting more and more popular, THAT is a fact! Perhaps the rate of popularity increase in your community would be better if there wasnt the "floppiness" Can you live with that ?

Cripes- do I have to produce people who refuse to watch because of theatrics? These are lost viewers, this is fact. Will people stop watching if it were removed from the game? If no (is this really unreasonable?), the net result will be a boost. Simple? Can you get the idea that something can have a negative effect on popularity even though the overall popularity is on the rise? That it could in fact be rising faster?

Exageration? yeap I have read umpteen times about how much diving Italy have been doing, its funny, because the all the media I read seem to indicate that they have not been doing this.

In the games I've seen, *most* of the times Italian players have gone down there was in fact contact. They do greatly embellish though, with the face grabbing as if their left leg has just been torn off. This gives a serious reputation hit in a country where we can watch a player picking his teeth off the ice, get stitched up, and return to the game to set up a winning goal.

This isn't about comparing sports themselves, but the general attitudes on how they are played. I've said it before, I love football (the soccer kind). I think some of the best conditioned athletes in the world are found in football, and it gives the best opportunities for creative displays of astonishing skill. At it's best, it is the best. At it's worst, it's painful to watch. I don't see why anyone wouldn't think it an improvement if the worst bits were removed.

 

[LeBrad]

You said that the "floppiness is hurting popularity" THAT is an assumption! Period, you can't prove it, and you have already admited that the opposite is the case, that it is getting more and more popular, THAT is a fact! Perhaps the rate of popularity increase in your community would be better if there wasnt the "floppiness" Can you live with that ?

Exageration? yeap I have read umpteen times about how much diving Italy have been doing, its funny, because the all the media I read seem to indicate that they have not been doing this.

Good for you, and credit that you are forming your own, yet misguided, oppinion's not reguritating some (soar grapes?) ESPN commentators nonsence.

Floppiness is preventing popularity in the US, that is a fact. I personally will never get behind the sport in its current state. Read some opinion pieces from American media on soccer. Most of them say soccer will never catch on here because we won't stand for the theatrics that take place.

If you claim the media you read does not indicate Italy has been flopping, then maybe you should stop reading your media and open your eyes and watch a game. It is absolutely pathetic what goes on, and then even more so that there are no repercussions for it. I don't blame the refs too much because the current officiating system is horribly flawed and they can't be on top of every play. But when a guy is rolling on the ground grabbing his eye and the replay shows nobody even touched his face... come on. Grow a set of balls. Ok, I understand you just got beat, somebody stole the ball from you, so rather than get up and chase after him, it's "manlier" to flop to the ground and pretend you got fouled, that way he is the dirty one because you could never lose the ball on a fair play, you are a soccer player!

I have played many sports throughout my life and have suffered many injuries, but never once in my life have I sustained an injury that caused me to roll on the ground grabbing a body part screaming in pain for 10 seconds, only to completely heal and allow me to get up and run for another 45 minutes with no ill effects seconds later. Yet somehow this happens all the time to these super soccer athletes. Then after the game they all take their shirts off, and sit around drinking Capri Sun and eating orange slices. Soccer players are so tough!

The players are floppers, sissies, and have no integrity. I'm sure they're not all like that, but enough are that it ruins it for many people. So Europe, thanks, but no thanks. We don't want soccer.

 

[Anttech]

Cripes- do I have to produce people who refuse to watch because of theatrics? These are lost viewers, this is fact. Will people stop watching if it were removed from the game? If no (is this really unreasonable?), the net result will be a boost. Simple? Can you get the idea that something can have a negative effect on popularity even though the overall popularity is on the rise? That it could in fact be rising faster?

-->"Perhaps the rate of popularity increase in your community would be better if there wasnt the "floppiness" Can you live with that ?"

I think you will find I said this :)

This isn't about comparing sports themselves, but the general attitudes on how they are played. I've said it before, I love football (the soccer kind). I think some of the best conditioned athletes in the world are found in football, and it gives the best opportunities for creative displays of astonishing skill. At it's best, it is the best. At it's worst, it's painful to watch. I don't see why anyone wouldn't think it an improvement if the worst bits were removed.

U have some good points, but I don't see the diving as bad as it has been or could be, its not a violent sport. Its almost non-contact. If you want to watch people hack bits out of each other watch Rugby or Hockey, watch football if you want to watch artistic finesse.

 

[Anttech]

Floppiness is preventing popularity in the US, that is a fact. I personally will never get behind the sport in its current state. Read some opinion pieces from American media on soccer. Most of them say soccer will never catch on here because we won't stand for the theatrics that take place.

If you claim the media you read does not indicate Italy has been flopping, then maybe you should stop reading your media and open your eyes and watch a game. It is absolutely pathetic what goes on, and then even more so that there are no repercussions for it. I don't blame the refs too much because the current officiating system is horribly flawed and they can't be on top of every play. But when a guy is rolling on the ground grabbing his eye and the replay shows nobody even touched his face... come on. Grow a set of balls. Ok, I understand you just got beat, somebody stole the ball from you, so rather than get up and chase after him, it's "manlier" to flop to the ground and pretend you got fouled, that way he is the dirty one because you could never lose the ball on a fair play, you are a soccer player!

two words:

SOUR GRAPES!

We don't want soccer.

Its called Football, and well, the rest of the world won't be complaining if we don't have to listen to "Net-shot" or "EPL" or "Round of 16" again

 

[shmoe]

-->"Perhaps the rate of popularity increase in your community would be better if there wasnt the "floppiness" Can you live with that ?"

In other words- 'it's hurting the popularity'. Yea, I can accept that and happily accept the limitation to Canada and the US (the only places I've been speaking for)

U have some good points, but I don't see the diving as bad as it has been or could be, its not a violent sport. Its almost non-contact. If you want to watch people hack bits out of each other watch Rugby or Hockey, watch football if you want to watch artistic finesse.

There is much finesse, but it is also physical game. Contact is inevetable.

Do you play? Did your coaches try to instill a desire to deceive the officials? To fall over when you could have stayed up? This is decidedly not the atmosphere I was in growing up-let the officials call the game, never give up chase unless your leg is broken. (I'm genuinely curious on the attitudes of players over there)

ps. hockey is filled with artistic finesse. Some players can do things with the puck that mere mortals cannot fathom. The hacking each other to bits is happily on a decline with recent rules changes, but there has always been artistic wizardry.

two words:

SOUR GRAPES!

It's not sour grapes at all. You have to understand that Canadian and US fans would love nothing more than for football to be more popular here. We (I at least) grew up with certain attitudes towards sport and how it should be played. I know if football at the highest levels was played more in this spirit that it would be more popular here and it's sad that the sport I most love to play will never be wholly embraced as a spectator event here if it stays in it's current form.

 

[George Jones]

This is decidedly not the atmosphere I was in growing up-let the officials call the game, never give up chase unless your leg is broken. (I'm genuinely curious on the attitudes of players over there)

Some people don't even give up then. While skating on a fractured ankle, Bobby Baun scored an overtime game-winning goal for the Leafs in the 1964 finals.

 

[NateTG]

In the games I've seen, *most* of the times Italian players have gone down there was in fact contact. They do greatly embellish though, with the face grabbing as if their left leg has just been torn off. This gives a serious reputation hit in a country where we can watch a player picking his teeth off the ice, get stitched up, and return to the game to set up a winning goal.

Word Cup Soccer currently allows a total of three substitutions per team per game. Until 1970 substitutions were not allowed at all.

As a consequence, players with injuries (or other problems) will occasionally stay in games. For example, in the epic 1970 semi-final encounter between Italy and Germany, Beckenbauer broke his clavicle near the end of regulation and continued to play.

 

[shmoe]

Some people don't even give up then. While skating on a fractured ankle, Bobby Baun scored an overtime game-winning goal for the Leafs in the 1964 finals.

He went off when it happened though :tongue:. That's mostly what I'm getting at, you go down only when you physically have no choice.

Baun's is certainly classic, Hockey has lots of busted foot examples. Even if you can't walk on it, it can be taped up nice and tight inside a skate. Not as feasible in football so I can't begrudge a player resting from an injury like this. I wouldn't think less of a hockey player for not playing on a fractured ankle either though, it certainly takes the right (admirable) combination of competitive drive, toughness, and maybe a touch of stupidity.

 

[shmoe]

Word Cup Soccer currently allows a total of three substitutions per team per game. Until 1970 substitutions were not allowed at all.

As a consequence, players with injuries (or other problems) will occasionally stay in games. For example, in the epic 1970 semi-final encounter between Italy and Germany, Beckenbauer broke his clavicle near the end of regulation and continued to play.

Without a doubt there are badasses in football as well. Even if subs were available, would anyone bet that Beckenbauer would have wanted one?