Going From EMF to Faraday's Law to find E-field in my HW problem

In summary, Griffiths explains how to find E field in a magnetic field above a current loop by solving for B. He then says that this B field is equivalent to the magnetic field above a ring with current I. However, he can't explicitly explain how this is the case and I couldn't find any mathematical justification of there equivalence.
  • #1
ChanceLiterature
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Homework Statement
Ok, so this out of Giffth's intro to Edynamics. Problem 7.19:
A toroidal coil has a rectangular cross section with inner radius a, outer radius a+w and height h. It has N tightly wound loops. dI/dt= k. Additionally, w, h << a. Find E above center of toroid at height z.
Relevant Equations
B inside toroid mu NI/ 2 /PI / s; s being from cylindrical.
B outside = 0
Ok, so I understand how to find dphi/dt that is integral of -d/dt(B "dot" da). In this case I find a Phi that is a constant in space in time which causes me confusion in next step.
Edit: dphi/dt is constant...

Grithff's then says E field same as a Mag field above center of circular current. He writes the B found from solving Biot-Savart for a ring with current I, and says that in this senecio I is equal to -1/mu dPhi/dt.

Firstly, how the heck am I supposed to know to make this substitution based on the textbook?Secondly, how does this make sense. How can I take a statement about EMF and faradays law that will gives me E dot dl of a closed loop and use that to find the E at any point in space. Especially, when the EMF is not a function of time or space!

I understand the idea that E field in this problem is equivalent to the B field in the prior problem. However, I can't explicitly understand how they are the same and I couldn't find any mathematical justification of there equivalence.

I would appreciate any help anyone can give me. This problem has frustrated me to no end. Therefore, I apologize for any moodiness while writing the problem.
 
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  • #2
Problem:
1649203144806.png

Solution from solution manual:
1649203225824.png
 
  • #3
ChanceLiterature said:
Homework Statement:: Ok, so this out of Giffth's intro to Edynamics. Problem 7.19:
A toroidal coil has a rectangular cross section with inner radius a, outer radius a+w and height h. It has N tightly wound loops. dI/dt= k. Additionally, w, h << a. Find E above center of toroid at height z.
Relevant Equations:: B inside toroid mu NI/ 2 /PI / s; s being from cylindrical.
B outside = 0

Ok, so I understand how to find dphi/dt that is integral of -d/dt(B "dot" da). In this case I find a Phi that is a constant in space in time which causes me confusion in next step.
The current ##I## is changing with time. How can the flux be constant?

ChanceLiterature said:
Grithff's then says E field same as a Mag field above center of circular current. He writes the B found from solving Biot-Savart for a ring with current I, and says that in this senecio I is equal to -1/mu dPhi/dt.

Firstly, how the heck am I supposed to know to make this substitution based on the textbook.

Secondly, how does this make sense. How can I take a statement about EMF and faradays law that will gives me E dot dl of a closed loop and use that to find the E at any point in space. Especially, when the EMF is not a function of time or space!

I understand the idea that E field in this problem is equivalent to the B field in the prior problem. However, I can't explicitly understand how they are the same and I couldn't find any mathematical justification of there equivalence.
He explains all of this pretty clearly at the beginning of that section 7.2.2 (in the fourth edition). If ##\mathbf{E}## is a purely induced field, it satisfies the same equations as a magnetostatic field with ##\mu_0 \mathbf{J}## replaced by the ##-\partial_t \mathbf{B}##.
 
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  • #4
Apologizes, I meant to say dphi/dt is constant in time and space.
Ok, I will look over that section in more detail now.
 
  • #5
vela said:
The current ##I## is changing with time. How can the flux be constant?He explains all of this pretty clearly at the beginning of that section 7.2.2 (in the fourth edition). If ##\mathbf{E}## is a purely induced field, it satisfies the same equations as a magnetostatic field with ##\mu_0 \mathbf{J}## replaced by the ##-\partial_t \mathbf{B}##.
Wow! I have no idea how I missed that! That raises a different question though. If we have EQ 7.18 from section 7.2.2, then why in the solutions does Griffiths find phi first when EQ 7.18 only requires partial of B. Do I need to find phi?
 
  • #6
The ##\partial_t B## is like the current density ##J##, but the magnetic field due to the loop depends on the current ##I##, which is analogous to the magnetic flux ##\Phi_B##.
 
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  • #7
Thank you!
 

1. How do I use Faraday's Law to find the electric field in my homework problem?

To use Faraday's Law to find the electric field, you will need to know the change in magnetic flux through a closed loop and the time it takes for that change to occur. The electric field can be calculated using the equation E = -dΦ/dt, where E is the electric field, Φ is the magnetic flux, and t is time.

2. What is Faraday's Law and how does it relate to EMF?

Faraday's Law states that a changing magnetic field will induce an electromotive force (EMF) in a closed loop. This means that a changing magnetic field can create an electric field, which can then cause a current to flow. In other words, Faraday's Law explains the relationship between a changing magnetic field and the resulting EMF.

3. Can I use Faraday's Law to find the electric field in any situation?

No, Faraday's Law can only be used to find the electric field in situations where there is a changing magnetic field. If the magnetic field is constant, there will be no induced electric field. Additionally, Faraday's Law only applies to closed loops, so it cannot be used to find the electric field at a specific point in space.

4. What are the units of the electric field when using Faraday's Law?

The units of the electric field when using Faraday's Law are volts per meter (V/m). This is because the electric field is equal to the negative change in magnetic flux over the change in time, which has units of webers per second (Wb/s). Since 1 volt is equal to 1 joule per coulomb, and 1 joule per coulomb is equivalent to 1 weber per volt, the units of the electric field can also be written as webers per volt per meter (Wb/V/m).

5. Are there any limitations to using Faraday's Law to find the electric field?

Yes, there are some limitations to using Faraday's Law. It assumes that the closed loop used to calculate the electric field is stationary and does not move or deform. Additionally, Faraday's Law does not take into account any resistive effects in the circuit. It is also important to note that Faraday's Law is a mathematical model and may not always accurately predict the behavior of electromagnetic phenomena in real-world situations.

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