Going into astronomy/astrophysics after EE

[Yashbhatt]

Hello,

I am graduating with a bachelor's degree in electrical engineering next July. I have been considering a move to astronomy/astrophysics. I read this thread by @ZapperZ and yes with a bit of revision, I can clear the Physics GRE. I also read a few testimonials of people who have made the transition and a common thing among them seems to be their research/project experience. However, I don't have any at this stage.

If I were to clear Physics GRE with a good score (and I have a decent GPA), would lack of project experience be a hindrance in getting into a physics based graduate program?

Thanks.

 

[Choppy]

I don't think it will be an insurmountable hurdle. There are lots of examples of people who get into graduate programs without having done a major research project.

One thing to think about though--if you haven't done any kind of research yet, how do you know that dedicating the next several years of your life to a research-based graduate degree is the right path for you?

The people on admissions committees will likely be wondering the same thing.

 

[Yashbhatt]

One thing to think about though--if you haven't done any kind of research yet, how do you know that dedicating the next several years of your life to a research-based graduate degree is the right path for you?

The people on admissions committees will likely be wondering the same thing.

I don't have a detailed answer except to say that I'm drawn towards it.

Actually, I enrolled into a Physics program after high school. I had charted out my path into astrophysics. But as luck would have had it, the university was terrible and I was in a mental health crisis. The task of working hard for 8-10 years more seemed daunting. I chickened out and joined a standard EE course. Do you think this could play out against me?

 

[Vanadium 50]

Do you think this could play out against me?

Suppose the answer is yes. What do you plan to do about it? Unless you have access to a time machine, I don't think you have many options.

I think your bigger concern is how you plan to "clear" (whatever that means) the GRE without the same physics background as most people. This is easier said than done.

 

[Yashbhatt]

Suppose the answer is yes. What do you plan to do about it? Unless you have access to a time machine, I don't think you have many options.

I think your bigger concern is how you plan to "clear" (whatever that means) the GRE without the same physics background as most people. This is easier said than done.

Well, I was thinking I could intern for sometime in a research lab here in India (there are openings for EE in some of them) and then give the GRE and its Indian equivalents later. I have looked up past papers and syllabus and with some prep, I think I get a decent score on them.

 

[Choppy]

Actually, I enrolled into a Physics program after high school. I had charted out my path into astrophysics. But as luck would have had it, the university was terrible and I was in a mental health crisis. The task of working hard for 8-10 years more seemed daunting. I chickened out and joined a standard EE course. Do you think this could play out against me?

Lots of students interested in the physical sciences struggle with the question of whether to pursue an academic education in physics or a more professionally oriented education in the engineering disciplines. There are students who do this and then get into physics graduate programs with an electrical engineering background.

It's important to understand though, that graduate school is competitive and you're going to be in a pool largely filled with students who have concentrated on physics as undergraduates and who have research experience. So it's unlikely you'll be placed on equal footing with them. The people on the admissions committee will look at your coursework and there will be some questions as to whether there are any holes that need to be filled in.

The GRE isn't the only gate to get through. Most physics departments have a qualifying examination. And if you can't pass that, admitting you can really be a waste of everyone's time. They need yo know you have an adequate background to have a high chance at getting through that. And a candidacy exam. And committee meetings. And a dissertation defense with an external examiner.

If you finished electrical engineering with a 4.0 GPA and lots of electives in physics with perhaps one course that could be filled in while you're a graduate student, that's one thing. However, if your transcripts suggest that you're missing the necessary prerequisite coursework in multiple areas, and your GPA just barely meets the minimum threshold, questions are bound to come up. Sometimes this can be made up for with an exceptional set of reference letters. But these would need to say more than 'the student did well in my class.'

 

[Yashbhatt]

I see. I think I might not be as adequately prepared as I thought.

Is there any other path way into this except getting a full second undergraduate in physics?

 

[PeroK]

I see. I think I might not be as adequately prepared as I thought.

Is there any other path way into this except getting a full second undergraduate in physics?

Become an EE and take up astronomy as a hobby!

 

[vela]

Is there any other path way into this except getting a full second undergraduate in physics?

In the US, you'd likely just need to take upper-division courses in physics, which can be completed in about two years. In my experience, there wasn't a whole lot of overlap between the two majors. I don't know how the majors compare in India. I'd guess you'd be missing classical mechanics, quantum mechanics, electromagnetism (as taught in physics), statistical mechanics, and math methods.

If you really want to go to grad school in physics, it's probably worth investing a year or two to get the proper background and to maximize the chances of being accepted to a school.

 

[Yashbhatt]

In the US, you'd likely just need to take upper-division courses in physics, which can be completed in about two years.

Does that mean applying to a graduate program or undergrad?

 

[vela]

Does that mean applying to a graduate program or undergrad?

Undergrad

 

[Yashbhatt]

Undergrad

I see. Thanks!

One more thing. Can you point out any resources for the uni exams mentioned above? I found this post link by @ZapperZ but there is no external link to any papers or anything.

 

[Yashbhatt]

I looked up a few qualifying exams (Yale, UofChicago etc.) and sure enough I don't how to solve all of it. But I checked here. Aren't qualifying exams to be taken at the end of second year of grad school? If I study the courses mentioned in the link for 2 years, then I can qualify. Am I missing something?

@Choppy @vela @Vanadium 50 @PeroK

 

[CrysPhys]

I looked up a few qualifying exams (Yale, UofChicago etc.) and sure enough I don't how to solve all of it. But I checked here. Aren't qualifying exams to be taken at the end of second year of grad school? If I study the courses mentioned in the link for 2 years, then I can qualify. Am I missing something?

@Choppy @vela @Vanadium 50 @PeroK

If you had scrolled down further on the Yale website you linked to, you would have found this (https://physics.yale.edu/academics/graduate-studies/graduate-student-handbook/qualifying-exam-1):

"The Qualifying Examination must be taken for the first time no later than the beginning of a student’s third semester. Any entering students may take the qualifying examination at the start of their first year. If a first-year student passes the exam, it satisfies the requirement. If the student does not pass, it does not count against the student in any way. In particular, it does not count as one of the two permitted opportunities to pass."

Similar policy at UIUC (https://physics.illinois.edu/academics/graduates/qualifying-examination):

"The written qualifying examination is given during the first or second week of the fall semester. Students entering the Ph.D program are required to take the qual by the beginning of their third semester that they are enrolled in the department, although they may elect to take it earlier. In the event of failure on the first try, a student is allowed one further attempt, which must be taken at the next offering. A "free shot" is available to all students at the time of their first enrollment. Failure on the free shot is not recorded and does not count against the student, but a pass is a bona fide pass. Thus, if you do some preparation, we encourage you to take the free shot; you have nothing to lose, and you may gain valuable insight into your own strengths and weaknesses to guide you in your selection of classes."

But note: Policy in the US is up to each school. The name and content of the exam also are up to each school.

 

[Yashbhatt]

If you had scrolled down further on the Yale website you linked to, you would have found this (https://physics.yale.edu/academics/graduate-studies/graduate-student-handbook/qualifying-exam-1):

"The Qualifying Examination must be taken for the first time no later than the beginning of a student’s third semester. Any entering students may take the qualifying examination at the start of their first year. If a first-year student passes the exam, it satisfies the requirement. If the student does not pass, it does not count against the student in any way. In particular, it does not count as one of the two permitted opportunities to pass."

Similar policy at UIUC (https://physics.illinois.edu/academics/graduates/qualifying-examination):

"The written qualifying examination is given during the first or second week of the fall semester. Students entering the Ph.D program are required to take the qual by the beginning of their third semester that they are enrolled in the department, although they may elect to take it earlier. In the event of failure on the first try, a student is allowed one further attempt, which must be taken at the next offering. A "free shot" is available to all students at the time of their first enrollment. Failure on the free shot is not recorded and does not count against the student, but a pass is a bona fide pass. Thus, if you do some preparation, we encourage you to take the free shot; you have nothing to lose, and you may gain valuable insight into your own strengths and weaknesses to guide you in your selection of classes."

But note: Policy in the US is up to each school. The name and content of the exam also are up to each school.

Aah. My bad. I apologize.

Undergrad

I talked to a couple of students who were from a similar background as mine and were able to take an extra year and study a few advanced undergrad courses. Is that an exception or the norm?

 

[CrysPhys]

I talked to a couple of students who were from a similar background as mine and were able to take an extra year and study a few advanced undergrad courses. Is that an exception or the norm?

<<Emphasis added.>> Why does this matter? Assuming (a) your university allows you to stay on an extra year, (b) you can afford an extra year's tuition, fees, and expenses, (c) you have a clear definition of your target goal, and (d) the extra year will give you a good chance of achieving your target goal ... what else matters?

 

[Yashbhatt]

<<Emphasis added.>> Why does this matter? Assuming (a) your university allows you to stay on an extra year, (b) you can afford an extra year's tuition, fees, and expenses, (c) you have a clear definition of your target goal, and (d) the extra year will give you a good chance of achieving your target goal ... what else matters?

I'm not talking about my university. The people in question were able to take extra time to the grad school they applied to study advanced undergrad courses.

 

[CrysPhys]

I'm not talking about my university. The people in question were able to take extra time to the grad school they applied to study advanced undergrad courses.

OK. Thanks for that clarification. But your initial concern was how to improve the odds of getting into a decent grad program, correct? Does your current university offer an undergrad physics program? (I ask, because we have had similar posts from other students in which they stated that the major they were really interested in was not offerred at their school.) If so, why not complete the appropriate physics courses there?

 

[Yashbhatt]

If so, why not complete the appropriate physics courses there?

Yes my university does offer degrees in Physics but (a) it’s not so good (b) it’s quite expensive and (c) it’s pretty inflexible. However, there are certain exams that I can appear for (similar to Physics GRE) and get into a good Master’s program. So, hopefully I will be doing that next year.

 

[Vanadium 50]

t’s quite expensive

And so would be a year in a graduate program catching up. Or are you expecting the graduate university to pay for that?

 

[hutchphd]

I commend to you the life of Tommy Gold
I believe his undergrad degree was in mining engineering. Of course those were different times but aren't they always?

 

[Yashbhatt]

And so would be a year in a graduate program catching up. Or are you expecting the graduate university to pay for that?

They did in the case of the person I talked to. That is the reason she suggested the option.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Sure, they might. But your plan depends on multiple low (but non-zero) probability events. In my view, that's not a good plan.

To describe it as the committee will see it: you have no better argument for why they should take you other than "I'm drawn towards it". Not strongly enough to prepare yourself, however. No, that's the responsibility of whomever accepts you.

Not only are you asking the university to reject someone else who is "drawn to it" - entering class sizes can only be so large - but you are asking them to take financial aid away from someone else as well - that's also a fixed resource. That's a pretty big thing to ask for. Is it unreasonable for them to want more than "I'm drawn towards it"?

 

[CrysPhys]

They did in the case of the person I talked to. That is the reason she suggested the option.

You previously cited this post started by ZapperZ (https://www.physicsforums.com/threa...if-my-bachelors-degree-isnt-in-physics.64966/). But note the critically important caveat in the very first post:

"I have a quick and easy way for you to check for yourself if you are (i) qualified and (ii) have the necessary background to do this IF you intend to go to a US educational institution." <<Emphasis added.>>

All these discussions we've had in this current thread about GREs, qualifying exams, funding, transferring to a PhD physics program with a non-physics undergrad degree ... are relevant if you are applying for a PhD physics program in the US. There are no unified international policies (even within the US, there are no unified policies: up to each school). Of particular note: In the US, at most schools, you can be admitted to a PhD physics program upon receipt of a bachelor's degree; a masters degree is not needed. In other countries, this is not true. It makes a big difference on admissions policies, funding, exams, ...

You previously asked, "Is that an exception or the norm?" If you plan to continue your graduate education in India, you need to be guided by the policies and opportunities specific to India.

 

[Yashbhatt]

Sure, they might. But your plan depends on multiple low (but non-zero) probability events. In my view, that's not a good plan.

To describe it as the committee will see it: you have no better argument for why they should take you other than "I'm drawn towards it". Not strongly enough to prepare yourself, however. No, that's the responsibility of whomever accepts you.

Not only are you asking the university to reject someone else who is "drawn to it" - entering class sizes can only be so large - but you are asking them to take financial aid away from someone else as well - that's also a fixed resource. That's a pretty big thing to ask for. Is it unreasonable for them to want more than "I'm drawn towards it"?

Yes you're right. It is pretty unreasonable. Hence, I am now more looking towards a MS/MSc program.

All these discussions we've had in this current thread about GREs, qualifying exams, funding, transferring to a PhD physics program with a non-physics undergrad degree ... are relevant if you are applying for a PhD physics program in the US.

Yes I'm aware. I have examined the Indian options. The academic level entrances are not much different except that Indian universities don't expect you to have done undergrad research or even internships which is advantageous in my case.