How did the initial dust particles form?

[hwpage]

TL;DR Summary

Planets, stars, and galaxies were formed from dust accumulation/accretion, but where did the dust come from?

I've looked for a while and can't find an answer to this, hence the post. Ultimately this is a question about how the first pieces of "classical" matter formed from quantum matter. My study of self-organizing systems shows that you need a hierarchical build-up of structures to allow a complex system to form. Just as you can't build a living plant (or animal) from bacterial cells (you need eukaryote cells); you can't build a planet from quantum particles, you first need classical matter. That "classical" dust accumulates/accretes into larger and larger objects until a star can form.

So is there a paper or discussion about how the first pieces of classical matter formed?

 

[mathman]

Start with aoms - bump together to form moecules. Molecules can combine via electromagnetic force, etc.

 

[hwpage]

I'm pretty sure it is a little more complicated than that. We'realing about early in the history of the cosmos, so things are hot, moving at great speed and molecules are electrically neutral and in a vacuum where the won't easily combine via the EM force.

 

[DaveC426913]

Read the first few sections of the Chronology of the Universe and see if you have specific questions.

 

[hwpage]

I do have specific questions and I have read this. In the Section Dark Ages - "Stars and galaxies are formed when dense regions of gas form due to the action of gravity, and this takes a long time within a near-uniform density of gas and on the scale required, so it is estimated that stars did not exist for perhaps hundreds of millions of years after recombination."

I'm asking if there is a way to fill this in with a little more detail. Quantum particles do not interactive very strongly via the gravitational. It seems like a lot of hand waving here to say that given enough time you'd get dense regions of gas. That is not how the universe builds complexity. It builds new structures that lead to new types of interactions that then evolve into even more complex things.

It makes more sense if quantum matter combined to form what I termed "classical matter" (a new structure) that does feel gravity (an evolved interaction). Classical matter feels gravity much more than quantum particles and can accumulate and form dense regions.

 

[DaveC426913]

What do you mean by "quantum matter"?

 

[hwpage]

Quantum matter that is described by the laws of quantum physics - aka wave functions. To contrast, think about classical matter, like a piece of dust. Although it is made up of quantum particles, it isn't governed by wave functions and doesn't exhibit behaviors like the uncertainty principle. Its interactions are mostly EM (if it is charged) or gravity.
Is that any clearer?

 

[romsofia]

Yes, the discussion is called big bang nucleosynthesis.

The idea is: Universe is in thermal equilibrium. Lots of particles and anti-particles. Things start to cool down, particles and anti-particles started to annihilate with each other. Things cool down more, neutrons and protons start to fuse into heavier nuceli, and now we have ionized hydrogen and helium.

 

[PeterDonis]

@hwpage Please do not use large bold font: that is the Internet equivalent of shouting. I have used magic mentor powers to edit your post #5 to put the font back to normal.

 

[timmdeeg]

Summary:: Planets, stars, and galaxies were formed from dust accumulation/accretion, but where did the dust come from?

In the early universe H atoms form H2 due to collision. Later higher elements are produced by stellar nucleosynthesis. After the explosion of stars these elements collide to form molecules which then collide to form dust particles.

 

[andrew s 1905]

Dust grains can be formed in the photosphere of late type stars in both dwarfs and giants. Due to the low surface gravity giants can lose material to space even if the don't go supernova leaving behind planetary nebula.
Regards Andrew

 

[lomidrevo]

@hwpage, I think the main issue is that you are insisting on a classification "quantum matter" vs "classical matter". How would you define the distinction between them? Is hydrogen atom a quantum particle or a classical particle according to you? And what about molecular hydrogen H₂, etc?
In my opinion, any definition of "quantum" and/or "classical" matter would be arbitrary and vague, and nature wouldn't really care of it.

I think answer to your question can be found in the wiki article mentioned above by @DaveC426913. Just read through the epochs of the early universe, and see how the particles constituting the matter in the universe were becoming more and more complex (elementary particles, nucleus, atoms, molecules..) . Once the molecular clouds were cool enough, the dense regions of such clouds could begin to collapse under the influence of gravity. In such way, the first stars were formed.

 

[lomidrevo]

One more remark: only about 1% of mass of the interstellar medium is dust (in the "current" universe). In case we are talking about the early universe and the formation of the first stars, there was no dust at all (as far as I know).

 

[hwpage]

Dust grains can be formed in the photosphere of late type stars in both dwarfs and giants. Due to the low surface gravity giants can lose material to space even if the don't go supernova leaving behind planetary nebula.
Regards Andrew

I'm looking for information on how the first dust grains came into existence, before stars existed.

 

[hwpage]

@hwpage, I think the main issue is that you are insisting on a classification "quantum matter" vs "classical matter". How would you define the distinction between them? Is hydrogen atom a quantum particle or a classical particle according to you? And what about molecular hydrogen H₂, etc?
In my opinion, any definition of "quantum" and/or "classical" matter would be arbitrary and vague, and nature wouldn't really care of it.

I think answer to your question can be found in the wiki article mentioned above by @DaveC426913. Just read through the epochs of the early universe, and see how the particles constituting the matter in the universe were becoming more and more complex (elementary particles, nucleus, atoms, molecules..) . Once the molecular clouds were cool enough, the dense regions of such clouds could begin to collapse under the influence of gravity. In such way, the first stars were formed.

A hydrogen atom is defined by wave functions, so it is quantum matter. A dust grain is governed by classical interactions. So my question is how do you define the behavior of a molecular cloud? is it governed by quantum interactions and wave functions or classical? The issue is that there is a lot of hand waving here that things collapsed in some undefined mechanism and then ... stars were formed. I'm interested in the discussion on how that very first step of star formation, the formation of dust grain, came to happen.

 

[andrew s 1905]

I don't thimk there were any as H, He and Lithium don't form dust particles thought they might form ices.
Regards Andrew

 

[andrew s 1905]

A hydrogen atom is defined by wave functions, so it is quantum matter. A dust grain is governed by classical interactions. So my question is how do you define the behavior of a molecular cloud? is it governed by quantum interactions and wave functions or classical? The issue is that there is a lot of hand waving here that things collapsed in some undefined mechanism and then ... stars were formed. I'm interested in the discussion on how that very first step of star formation, the formation of dust grain, came to happen.

Both, on a large scale you can treat the molecular cloud classically. If you want to look at the details of particle interacting then QM might be more accurate although even here classical approximations may be good enough.
In colapse to stars gravity is the driver with em getting rid of excess energy and momentum.
Regards Andrew

 

[lomidrevo]

is it governed by quantum interactions and wave functions or classical?

You don't need QM to describe it on large scales

The issue is that there is a lot of hand waving here that things collapsed in some undefined mechanism and then ...

Is this article specific enough?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeans_instability

I'm interested in the discussion on how that very first step of star formation, the formation of dust grain, came to happen.

I already said that dust is not present in case of very first stars, afaik

 

[timmdeeg]

I'm looking for information on how the first dust grains came into existence, before stars existed.

The formation of dust requires higher elements. Before stars existed no higher elements existed, see #10.

 

[PeterDonis]

A hydrogen atom is defined by wave functions, so it is quantum matter. A dust grain is governed by classical interactions.

This is not correct. There is no sharp boundary between "quantum matter" and things "governed by classical interactions". It depends on what specifically you are modeling and how accurate you want your model to be. You can model hydrogen gas in Jupiter's atmosphere just fine classically. And if you want to understand what holds a dust grain's atoms together you need quantum mechanics.

how do you define the behavior of a molecular cloud? is it governed by quantum interactions and wave functions or classical?

For purposes of cosmology and astronomy, a classical model works just fine.

However, this is a different question from the question of how, exactly, structure formed in the universe. You can't answer that question by just saying "quantum model" or "classical model". You have to look at the actual specifics of the actual model. Cosmology textbooks discuss structure formation in the early universe in some detail. Have you read any of them?

I'm looking for information on how the first dust grains came into existence, before stars existed.

You won't find any, because the matter in the universe was not "dust grains" before stars existed, as several posters have already pointed out.