If East Germany Could Secure Their Border So Can America

[drankin]

Apparently one person can use a twenty foot latter to scale a fence, but not one million over a double fence. Build the fence, and I suspect the country will gladly go along with immigration reform for the millions already in the country.

This seems very reasonable and I agree it would make the idea of amnesty more acceptable if we believed that the flood of illegals was effectively diminished. I don't understand the resistance to building a fence. There is a lot of sarcasm about the effectiveness on this forum.

Noone blames illegals for the want to come here. That's not the argument. It's unreasonable to me for just anyone to walk to a neighboring country and take up permanent residence without the permission of its government. There is an orderly system of immigration to any country. Why should the US be an exception?

 

[mheslep]

This seems very reasonable and I agree it would make the idea of amnesty more acceptable if we believed that the flood of illegals was effectively diminished. I don't understand the resistance to building a fence. There is a lot of sarcasm about the effectiveness on this forum.

Noone blames illegals for the want to come here. That's not the argument. It's unreasonable to me for just anyone to walk to a neighboring country and take up permanent residence without the permission of its government. There is an orderly system of immigration to any country. Why should the US be an exception?

Agreed.

 

[Char. Limit]

this seems very reasonable and i agree it would make the idea of amnesty more acceptable if we believed that the flood of illegals was effectively diminished. I don't understand the resistance to building a fence. There is a lot of sarcasm about the effectiveness on this forum.

Noone blames illegals for the want to come here. That's not the argument. It's unreasonable to me for just anyone to walk to a neighboring country and take up permanent residence without the permission of its government. There is an orderly system of immigration to any country. Why should the us be an exception?

qft.

 

[Evo]

You guys know we already have a fence and that in 2006 Congress has set aside another $2.7 billion for the fence?

I posted pictures of the fence earlier. Can char, drankin, mheslep, etc... explain what they are talking about? I'm not quite clear. Is it the small unfinished parts that are still to be completed?

US-Mexico border fence almost complete

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2009/01/27/20090127border-fence0127-ON.html

I believe the rest of us were commenting on the nutty politician saying we need a Berlin Wall type fence.

 

[Char. Limit]

I'm just quoting people. I don't really have a stake in this issue at all... I just quote what sounds good.

 

[mheslep]

You guys know we already have a fence and that in 2006 Congress has set aside another $2.7 billion for the fence?

I posted pictures of the fence earlier. Can char, drankin, mheslep, etc... explain what they are talking about? I'm not quite clear. Is it the small unfinished parts that are still to be completed?

US-Mexico border fence almost complete

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2009/01/27/20090127border-fence0127-ON.html

The US - Mexico border is more than 2000 miles long. As the article indicates, not even a third has been built (the title is misleading). I believe the current US administration is slow walking the remainder.

Edit:

I believe the rest of us were commenting on the nutty politician saying we need a Berlin Wall type fence.

1. Miller's not a nutty politician; http://joemiller.us/about/bio" , one of the best rookies in the country.
2. I don't know what Miller said, as we don't have any reliable source in the thread (the quote comes via some http://whatdoino-steve.blogspot.com/" ).
3. The quote, even if accurate:

East Germany was very, very able to reduce the flow…Now, obviously, other things there were involved. We have the capacity to, as a great nation, obviously to secure our border. If East Germany could do, we could it

Does not lead me to believe Miller believes the US needs "a Berlin Wall type fence" complete with shooting people in "cold blood."

 

[turbo]

Would right-wingers like Meg Whitman (who employed an illegal alien as her housekeeper) roll back the xenophobia and support an expanded program that fast-tracks gainfully-employed immigrants toward residency status and eventual citizenship? Illegals are being used as a political football, and the "just say NO" stance is not working.

My father's family came here from Ireland, and they faced resistance. My mother's family came here from Canada and they faced resistance. The KKK was very popular in Maine in the 1920's, not because there were lots of black people to rail against, but because there were Catholic immigrants from Ireland and Canada to scapegoat. Even 30 years on, when I was a child, there was still discrimination against us. It was very common to hear people slurring immigrants as Micks and Frogs, usually preceded by adjectives like "stupid", "dumb", etc.

My mother's father and her aunts and uncles never got fluent in English, since they came here as adults and did not have a lot of productive contact with English-speakers. My mother didn't teach me French (though I picked up a lot from other family members) because she was pitched into school in the first grade knowing not a word of English. When she graduated HS, she was the Salutatorian, but she had a long hard path to get there, starting in grade school. I see similar situations with Hispanics, and see hate and fear-mongering being used as tools to emphasize the "otherness" of immigrants.

It may seem odd, but agriculture in Maine (the jobs that require lots of hand-labor, such as dairy operations, orchard-work, and seasonal crops like broccoli) would be very expensive and possibly unsustainable without a migrant work-force. A large local dairy farm has a work-force comprised primarily of documented immigrants that live, eat, and work on the premises. The sandwich counter at the local grocery had to start carrying jalapeno peppers as sandwich ingredients to keep the Mexicans happy when they splurged on take-out. They work hard and send their money home to their families. Why can't they earn a shot a citizenship and bring their loved ones here?

 

[Evo]

I'm just quoting people. I don't really have a stake in this issue at all... I just quote what sounds good.

Well, you shouldn't do that. If you don't know if what they said is correct or have no information to add, you should not post.

 

[drankin]

You guys know we already have a fence and that in 2006 Congress has set aside another $2.7 billion for the fence?

I posted pictures of the fence earlier. Can char, drankin, mheslep, etc... explain what they are talking about? I'm not quite clear. Is it the small unfinished parts that are still to be completed?

US-Mexico border fence almost complete

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2009/01/27/20090127border-fence0127-ON.html

I believe the rest of us were commenting on the nutty politician saying we need a Berlin Wall type fence.

The way I understand it, it's not a continual fence. I can't find any definitive news but the project is only for 670 miles of the 2000 miles of border.

 

[Evo]

The US - Mexico border is more than 2000 miles long. As the article indicates, not even a third has been built (the title is misleading). I believe the current US administration is slow walking the remainder.

No, it's not complete, I'm trying to find a current map, meanwhile, you can read this.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military/news/us-southern-border-fence-tech-map

 

[NobodySpecial]

As others have said, the Berlin Wall was built to keep people in, the goal of the fence on the southern US border is to keep people out. The symbolism of this difference as pertains to the nature of the US vs E. Germany is obvious.

It's also technically rather easier. The land 20km upto the border was restricted needing a special permit to enter, the last km upto the fence needed an armed guard to enter - even to farm land near the fence.
In addition the secret police were very active in searching out anybody who showed any interest in the wall or in any aspect of the west.
Building a wall to keep people out is considerably more difficult.

 

[CAC1001]

Would right-wingers like Meg Whitman (who employed an illegal alien as her housekeeper) roll back the xenophobia and support an expanded program that fast-tracks gainfully-employed immigrants toward residency status and eventual citizenship? Illegals are being used as a political football, and the "just say NO" stance is not working.

My father's family came here from Ireland, and they faced resistance. My mother's family came here from Canada and they faced resistance. The KKK was very popular in Maine in the 1920's, not because there were lots of black people to rail against, but because there were Catholic immigrants from Ireland and Canada to scapegoat. Even 30 years on, when I was a child, there was still discrimination against us. It was very common to hear people slurring immigrants as Micks and Frogs, usually preceded by adjectives like "stupid", "dumb", etc.

My mother's father and her aunts and uncles never got fluent in English, since they came here as adults and did not have a lot of productive contact with English-speakers. My mother didn't teach me French (though I picked up a lot from other family members) because she was pitched into school in the first grade knowing not a word of English. When she graduated HS, she was the Salutatorian, but she had a long hard path to get there, starting in grade school. I see similar situations with Hispanics, and see hate and fear-mongering being used as tools to emphasize the "otherness" of immigrants.

It may seem odd, but agriculture in Maine (the jobs that require lots of hand-labor, such as dairy operations, orchard-work, and seasonal crops like broccoli) would be very expensive and possibly unsustainable without a migrant work-force. A large local dairy farm has a work-force comprised primarily of documented immigrants that live, eat, and work on the premises. The sandwich counter at the local grocery had to start carrying jalapeno peppers as sandwich ingredients to keep the Mexicans happy when they splurged on take-out. They work hard and send their money home to their families. Why can't they earn a shot a citizenship and bring their loved ones here?

I have no problem with the illegals whom come here to work and make a decent living, it is the ones who come here and bring crime and drugs, and/or to live off of the social welfare state.

The other problem with this is that the social welfare state, when applied to groups like illegals, prevents them from assimilating into society. As you mentioned, all ethnicities and cultures ran into trouble upon first coming to America and no one really like one another. The Irish lived in their own areas, the Jews lived in their own areas, the Italians in their own areas, the Chinese in their own, etc...and even among the Italians there was separation between the ones from northern Italy and southern Italy, same with Jews of different cultures, etc...what unified everyone by the second and third generation however was learning the English language and being able to function in American society, as there was no social welfare state, so they had to find jobs and work, and thus today you'll find many ethnicities all living amongst one another (although even today in some areas this is finicky, for example in NYC there is tension in areas between Jews and blacks).

But this won't happen unless the immigrants have an incentive to learn English and assimilate. Which means they need to come to work. If they come to live on welfare, there is no need to learn English and become a productive member of society.

 

[Evo]

The way I understand it, it's not a continual fence. I can't find any definitive news but the project is only for 670 miles of the 2000 miles of border.

The BBC had a map back in 2006, various fences appeared to cover more than half of the border. Some of those fences may no longer exist. I think the 670 miles is the "new fence".

 

[Desi_M]

I am a female of Mexican descent living in what many call the "hood" and I see the effects of illegal immigration on a daily basis every time I go home from college. I really respect what a lot of you who posted here have to say. I am very divided in my opinion of immigration policy and what should be done about it. One of the problems I face directly is the crime rate in my neighborhood that some attribute to our high illegal immigrant population. I agree that something needs to be done about it, I mean I've been followed home by a truck full of guys who couldn't even heckle me in English. There is a joke someone I know made about building a fence, "Yeah if they choose to build a fence, who are they going to get to build it?"

 

[drankin]

I am a female of Mexican descent living in what many call the "hood" and I see the effects of illegal immigration on a daily basis every time I go home from college. I really respect what a lot of you who posted here have to say. I am very divided in my opinion of immigration policy and what should be done about it. One of the problems I face directly is the crime rate in my neighborhood that some attribute to our high illegal immigrant population. I agree that something needs to be done about it, I mean I've been followed home by a truck full of guys who couldn't even heckle me in English. There is a joke someone I know made about building a fence, "Yeah if they choose to build a fence, who are they going to get to build it?"

As far as who builds the fence, the same people that already built 1/3 of it already. Your joke suggests that Americans won't do manual labor or hard work. Looking at what our country has done in the past and is doing now, it really isn't that funny.

 

[Barwick]

They work hard and send their money home to their families. Why can't they earn a shot a citizenship and bring their loved ones here?

They can earn a shot at permanent resident status. But being a citizen is not something people are guaranteed. As I said before, I suggest the following:

1) Everyone here must register with us by XYZ date. If they don't, anyone found here undocumented will be deported, period.
2) Grant permanent residency to those who registered, are already here being productive, and haven't committed felonies.
3) Nobody who is here illegally currently can *ever* become a citizen unless they immediately go back to their home country upon registration with us, and begin the process of citizenship like everyone else. Their alternative is remaining here as a permanent resident for life with no chance of citizenship (they did break a legitimate law).
4) The children of those permanent residents can become citizens upon turning 18, after going through the same process (but not the same quota limitations) as other immigrants wishing to become citizens.

 

[Desi_M]

Americans will do manual labor, I'm not suggesting that they won't. Trust me, I know many American citizens who jump on the chance. From what I've experienced, sometimes the will to work isn't enough to get them the job. Americans are not lazy, but Americans have to eat and provide for themselves and their families. People hire illegals because they will work for a lot less, it's not right and it's not fair, but that's what happens. Citizens pay taxes, have to pay for medical care, and illegal immigrants don't. Citizens have to pay the cost of living in the United States, illegal immigrants pay a lot less to live here. That is the reality. An illegal immigrant can live off what little they're getting paid, and American in most cases can't. And when it comes to hiring in El Paso, Laredo, and The Valley, there is a huge illegal immigrant population that will work for what ever their employers want to pay.

My father worked in construction and he is an American, but the truth is, it wasn't paying enough to get him out of his brother's house and back to the same city as his daughter, so he went back to school. Now he's a business owner, he hires US citizens, and they are a lot more expensive than the illegal that walks in the door who says, "I'll do anything."

 

[CRGreathouse]

People hire illegals because they will work for a lot less, it's not right and it's not fair, but that's what happens.

Why isn't it fair? If they're willing to do more work per dollar, why not hire them?

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

Why isn't it fair? If they're willing to do more work per dollar, why not hire them?

As a software engineer making six figures, I get nervous looking at the illegal alien sitting in the next cubicle getting less than minimum wage for the same work.

 

[Barwick]

Why isn't it fair? If they're willing to do more work per dollar, why not hire them?

Because that would take away a union job!

oops, did I say that? :)

Honestly? It's because of government protectionism that's artificially inflating wages in this country, and therefore artificially inflating the prices of every product we purchase. This in turn makes workers demand higher "minimum wage" (what a farce), which raises wages again, causing increases in price, and the cycle continues.

 

[CRGreathouse]

As a software engineer making six figures, I get nervous looking at the illegal alien sitting in the next cubicle getting less than minimum wage for the same work.

I do the same sort of work but make 1 digit less. Are you worried about me taking your job?

Presumably you're well-paid because you're good. I stopped worrying about competition from India when I saw the quality of the work done there. I'm sure over time it will rise, but so will (and have!) their salaries.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

I do the same sort of work but make 1 digit less. Are you worried about me taking your job?

No, but I spoke with the other guy and he said he was worried that his job would be outsourced back to Mexico. If they build a fence he won't be able to get home.

 

[drankin]

No, but I spoke with the other guy and he said he was worried that his job would be outsourced back to Mexico. If they build a fence he won't be able to get home.

I'm pretty sure he can just walk through a border crossing. They don't seem to mind people going that direction.

 

[Evo]

I'm pretty sure he can just walk through a border crossing. They don't seem to mind people going that direction.

Reminds me of this article a member posted.

Illegal Immigrants Returning To Mexico For American Jobs

Still, the danger is very real. When 31-year-old illegal Arizona resident Ignacio Jimenez sought employment at an American plant in Mexico, he was shot at by Mexican border guards as he attempted to illegally enter the country of his citizenship, pursued by U.S. immigration officials who thought he might be entering the country illegally, and fired upon again by a second group of U.S. Border Patrol agents charged with keeping valuable table-busing and food-delivery personnel inside American borders.

http://www.theonion.com/articles/illegal-immigrants-returning-to-mexico-for-america,1951/

 

[drankin]

Reminds me of this article a member posted.



http://www.theonion.com/articles/illegal-immigrants-returning-to-mexico-for-america,1951/

Of course, one must cross at designated border crossings or risk being shot at.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

Reminds me of this article a member posted.

I lift most of my material.

 

[turbo]

I lift most of my material.

Steal from the best and you'll do well.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

Steal from the best and you'll do well.

I'll use that someday.

 

[CAC1001]

Reminds me of this article a member posted.



http://www.theonion.com/articles/illegal-immigrants-returning-to-mexico-for-america,1951/

I don't know if you guys are joking or think this link is serious, but if the latter, keep in mind that's The Onion

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

I don't know if you guys are joking or think this link is serious, but if the latter, keep in mind that's The Onion

I was more worried that people were taking me seriously.

 

[skeptic2]

I lived near the border in Nogales, AZ and worked in Nogales, Sonora. Thousands of people cross the border every day from both sides. How does a fence stop them? How does a fence stop those who overstay their visas. Did the East Germans have to deal with those problems?

I propose we offer a work visa at the US Consulates that guarantee at least minimum wage to the holder.
* Income tax and FICA would have to be paid on earnings or the visa would not be renewed.
* By requiring the employers to pay at least minimum wage these workers would not be putting downward pressure on low wage jobs.
* By requiring them to pay taxes, they would be no more a burden on taxpayers than low wage earning Americans.
* Employers may be encouraged to hire Americans for jobs for which they formerly used illegals.
* Illegals who are already here may return to get a visa in order to raise their wages.

 

[mugaliens]

I read the cost of securing our souther border is about $15 million per mile!

 

[mheslep]

Thousands of people cross the border every day from both sides. How does a fence stop them? How does a fence stop those who overstay their visas. [...]

Good point but a somewhat different problem. At least for visa busters identity and some background information is known, meaning, among other things, a visa violator can't exit the country and expect to easily re-enter the country again with another visa, ruling out its use for repeat narcotics traffickers, for example. Second, the US always has the option of ratcheting down visas if it chooses on a country by country basis, encouraging cooperation from host countries to send people likely to abide by the terms of the visa.

 

[Galteeth]

Ok, I know this is an unpopular view point but from a moral point of view- what gives the US the right to restrict people's freedom of movement? Would you want to live in Mexico? What gives you the right to be here but not the them? I understand that immigration is not a long term solution to the problem. But the US has created a situation, through NAFTA, the war on drugs, and currency hegemony where Mexico just keeps getting worse and worse. Since NAFTA, which was supposed to improve the Mexican economy, the amount of immigrants has exploded. The US feels it can exploit the world through neo-mercantilist economic domination, backed by its dollar hegemony, which is backed by its military, and reacts with shock to the consequences that people want to live inside the seat of the empire.

My solution to the border problem: Repeal NAFTA, end the war on drugs, end government entitlements that encourage people to come, and start buying domestically produced products

 

[CAC1001]

Ok, I know this is an unpopular view point but from a moral point of view- what gives the US the right to restrict people's freedom of movement? Would you want to live in Mexico? What gives you the right to be here but not the them?

Because we are a nation? What gives many of them the right to utilize the social services paid for by the American taxpayer without paying taxes?

I understand that immigration is not a long term solution to the problem. But the US has created a situation, through NAFTA, the war on drugs, and currency hegemony where Mexico just keeps getting worse and worse.

Mexico's problems are all America's fault? NAFTA allows free trade (or more free trade) which leads to job creation for both sides. As for "currency hegemony," I would think America having a stronger currency makes Mexican-produced goods more attractive to Americans, because they are cheaper to import. America having a weaker currency than Mexico would hurt Mexican exports to America.

Since NAFTA, which was supposed to improve the Mexican economy, the amount of immigrants has exploded. The US feels it can exploit the world through neo-mercantilist economic domination, backed by its dollar hegemony, which is backed by its military, and reacts with shock to the consequences that people want to live inside the seat of the empire.

How do you mean America seeks to "exploit" the world, and how is the dollar backed by the military. Last I checked, the dollar's strength is backed by the economy. and no one is shocked people want to live inside America, but we cannot as a nation have a situation where people just randomly cross the border either.

My solution to the border problem: Repeal NAFTA, end the war on drugs, end government entitlements that encourage people to come, and start buying domestically produced products

Agree on the entitlements, disagree on NAFTA, not sure on the War on Drugs, as for products, buy from whomever produces with the most quality and best price.