Is Chi Real? Exploring the Concept of Chi in Chinese Philosophy

[nismaratwork]

An excellent essay about self-deception in the martial arts. Thanks for posting!

:rofl:

 

[lisab]

Relevant, and in my opinion, interesting essay about the martial arts.

http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~grussell/epistemicviciousness.pdf

...epistemic viciousness is the possession of vices that make one bad at acquiring true beliefs...

That's great, Galteeth. It should be required reading for all students of martial arts...and I bet it applies to a lot of other fields, as well.

 

[Dryerasethis]

Qi, Ki, or Chi to me is simply a mastery of motion in your own body. Nothing mystical about it, there are a lot of people who think its magic and like to claim hocus pocus, but the actual examples of it's use (Throwing a powerful strike, or deflecting a force) simply demonstrate your body exerting as much force as you are capable of making it do so.

So here's a question for you, do you think the average person when trying to exert as much force as they can through some means, is actually exerting as much force as their body is capable of producing? I don't think so.

Adrenaline is a perfect example of our body reacting in a way that enhances it's own physical prowess. Maybe Qi, Ki, or Chi practices actually just give the body a dose of epinephrine, maybe they somehow encourage your body to be more mechanically sound in its motion. Hard to say, but I do know there is SOMETHING that makes a man who got caught in a rockslide while rock climbing bench press a 500kg rock off of him.

 

[nismaratwork]

Qi, Ki, or Chi to me is simply a mastery of motion in your own body. Nothing mystical about it, there are a lot of people who think its magic and like to claim hocus pocus, but the actual examples of it's use (Throwing a powerful strike, or deflecting a force) simply demonstrate your body exerting as much force as you are capable of making it do so.

So here's a question for you, do you think the average person when trying to exert as much force as they can through some means, is actually exerting as much force as their body is capable of producing? I don't think so.

Adrenaline is a perfect example of our body reacting in a way that enhances it's own physical prowess. Maybe Qi, Ki, or Chi practices actually just give the body a dose of epinephrine, maybe they somehow encourage your body to be more mechanically sound in its motion. Hard to say, but I do know there is SOMETHING that makes a man who got caught in a rockslide while rock climbing bench press a 500kg rock off of him.

There is also the issue of coordinated muscular activity versus using only large muscle groups... the thing is, while you make good points, they are not the limits of the claims made by those who believe in "Qi".

Reiki is a good example of Ki as magic, in the minds of some.

 

[mugaliens]

Reiki is a good example of Ki as magic, in the minds of some.

According to studies published last year in International Journal of Clinical Practice and in Nov 2009 in the Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine, "reiki is not an effective treatment for any condition." - http://www.livescience.com/health/091208-alternative-medicine.html"

The term "reiki" is a compound of from two Japanese words, "rei," meaning "departed spirit, gohst, spiril, soul, miraculous, sacred, or divine," and "ki," which is the subject of this thread. Taken together, they loosely translite as "universal life energy." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reiki#Derivation_of_name"

In 2008, a systematic review of randomised clinical trials assessing the evidence basis of Reiki concluding that efficacy had not been demonstrated for any condition. - "http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18410352" " (from the International Journal of Clinical Practice, indexed for MEDLINE, and cross-published in PubMed.gov).

 

[sujiwun]

In Chinese philosophy they talk of a force called Chi. It's an electrical current that runs through your body,everything around you, and Earth.

I'm thinking maybe they weren't wrong. There is an electrical current that runs through you. It's the currents of your nervouce system. his may be what they were talking about.

Also there is a current that runs through your body. Just like there's 14 pounds of air per sqaure ince of your body there's lots ofelectrcity running through us. We're used to it so we don't feel anything. I'm wondering could this be CHi also.

Qi isn't a force, it is the ancient traditional Chinese medicine equivalent of the abstract modern notion of energy. Just as in western Hegellian dialectics where nature is said to comprised of two opposing energies, in TCM Qi is divided into two types yin-qi and yang-qi that interact with each other.

Yang-qi is associated with the masculine, fire, heat, dynamism and also physiologically with transparent bodily fluids, the air you breathe and the upper organs.

Yin-qi is associated with the feminine, coldness, Earth, matter, stillness, and also physiologically with bodily matter, waste products, the lower organs etc.

You can see that there is a close parallel between what we call potential energy and kinetic energy in physics with what are yin-qi and yang-qi in TCM. When matter is hot, its particles vibrate more - they have more KE/yang-qi, matter itself contains chemcial energy or potential energy/yin-qi. Since physical objects contain matter and that matter is vibrating particles - then it contains both KE and PE, or yang-qi and qin-qi.

The TCM concept of yin and yang being in healthy harmonic balance, is little more than the notion of homeostasis in modern western medicine, though obvious there will be some dispute as to what this actually means.

Simplistically, you might consider the body as skeletal frame - yin - and musculature - yang. The body needs both working together to function, too much of either one or the other and the body will be out of balance. TCM applies this idea to everything, things are either more yin or more yang, but, ultimately comprised of both energies.

The mysticism surrounding Qi is more eastern poetic license than anything else. Philosophically, TCM is another system of science not too far removed from what we are already familiar with.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huangdi_Neijing

 

[kramer733]

qi doesn't exist. I'm currently doing bjj and i'll be honest. It's all mental strength. When you have mental strength, you can do anything. At one point, i was at the top of my jiu jitsu game and i was taking down people who had 50lb+ advantage and all i did was believe in myself. Now I lost that "will" and can't do it again.

 

[alt]

qi doesn't exist. I'm currently doing bjj and i'll be honest. It's all mental strength. When you have mental strength, you can do anything. At one point, i was at the top of my jiu jitsu game and i was taking down people who had 50lb+ advantage and all i did was believe in myself. Now I lost that "will" and can't do it again.

Yes, I agree. But firstly, you need have the physical strength, and then the mental strength to employ it to do what you claimed - very believable.

 

[Alfrez]

China Physicists are undecided what kind of force is Chi. Can anyone refute the following?

http://www.accessv.com/~yuan/yansci/time/2002_YanXin_Qigong_JSE.pdf

 

[ZapperZ]

How many of those people do you think are "physicists"?

Zz.

 

[nismaratwork]

How many of those people do you think are "physicists"?

Zz.

...And even if they are, how free they are to speak their mind. Striking a balance like that can be very smart, but in private...?

 

[Alfrez]

...And even if they are, how free they are to speak their mind. Striking a balance like that can be very smart, but in private...?

Or biophysicists because physicists don't usually handle biological works but only on particle accelerators.

In the experiments, the chi emitted can even allegedly affect radioactivity rates. We know it is impossible because quantum probability can't be affected by anything.. unless the unknown qi force introduced right to the atoms has additional interaction Hamiltonian dynamics that can affect the mass or nuclear characteristics of the particle ensemble.

Our natural reaction is to refute it a priori but elsewhere, experiments also show radioactivity can be affected.. so maybe United States biophysicists must at least try one experiment and overwhelmingly refute it by empirical data... not by a priori.

 

[ZapperZ]

Or biophysicists because physicists don't usually handle biological works but only on particle accelerators.

In the experiments, the chi emitted can even allegedly affect radioactivity rates. We know it is impossible because quantum probability can't be affected by anything.. unless the unknown qi force introduced right to the atoms has additional interaction Hamiltonian dynamics that can affect the mass or nuclear characteristics of the particle ensemble.

Our natural reaction is to refute it a priori but elsewhere, experiments also show radioactivity can be affected.. so maybe United States biophysicists must at least try one experiment and overwhelmingly refute it by empirical data... not by a priori.

But are you still insisting on calling these authors as "China physicists"?

Zz.

 

[Alfrez]

But are you still insisting on calling these authors as "China physicists"?

Zz.

Or better yet.. just china scientists. Although one of them is Runsheng Zhu from the
Institute of High Energy Physics, Chinese Academy of Sciences, Beijing, China.

 

[nismaratwork]

Or biophysicists because physicists don't usually handle biological works but only on particle accelerators.

In the experiments, the chi emitted can even allegedly affect radioactivity rates. We know it is impossible because quantum probability can't be affected by anything.. unless the unknown qi force introduced right to the atoms has additional interaction Hamiltonian dynamics that can affect the mass or nuclear characteristics of the particle ensemble.

Our natural reaction is to refute it a priori but elsewhere, experiments also show radioactivity can be affected.. so maybe United States biophysicists must at least try one experiment and overwhelmingly refute it by empirical data... not by a priori.

Wow... what a mess.edit: I think an exception should be made in the nomenclature for the "Chi" force carrier... it needs to be: The Cheeto... you can tell when it's being exerted because it leaves a light orange dusting of cheddar behind!

 

[Alfrez]

Guys. Pseudosciences and conspiracies are not tolerated in this forum, and for perfectly good reason which we all agree as it is anti-science. Do you think chi or qi is a pseudoscience? I need to know before I go on lest this thread get closed up for moderation permanently or get banned.

 

[Proton Soup]

lol, all that gobbledygook disappeared.

seems this stuff is some kind of snake oil marketed to elites

http://tech.mit.edu/V122/N1/1conf.1n.html

 

[berkeman]

Guys. Pseudosciences and conspiracies are not tolerated in this forum, and for perfectly good reason which we all agree as it is anti-science. Do you think chi or qi is a pseudoscience? I need to know before I go on lest this thread get closed up for moderation permanently or get banned.

I think Doc Al said it well in the beginning of this thread:

I've been involved in the martial arts for decades and I'm still waiting for a demonstration of non-physical "chi" (along with FredGarvin, apparently). I'm talking about the BS-ers who claim that they have abilities that "go beyond" the physical.

The (non-BS) masters I know who use the term "chi" readily admit that it's "nothing more" than exquisite reflexes, balance, sensitivity, and body mechanics. Of course, that "nothing more" is plenty--some of these guys will blow your mind! But... violate the laws of physics? Get real.

There are some real aspects to "real Chi", and lots of folks who want it to go beyond the physical, which it does not. To the extent that there may appear to be cases where it goes beyond what is currently understood to be a physical limit, it is worth using the scientific method to explore those cases.

 

[berkeman]

lol, all that gobbledygook disappeared.

Amazing how that happens at the PF

 

[Alfrez]

Chi can be nothing more than the ATPs created by the Mitochondria in the cells in the process called Electron Transport Chain. When you exercise a lot. Your cells would have more mitochondrias packed inside, so it is said one develope more "chi's".

But then, what organized the entire physical body? Nervous system is it as well as bloodstream hormones, chemical signals, muscles, tendons. Are they enough??

If not enough. Then Chi is some additional organizing properties. If enough, then Chi is superfluous.

Also our brain. Is it possible our entire mental selves is created by the physical brain alone? The Qualia.. like redness of red. Could mere physical substance like neurons create it? If it does, then Chi is not needed. But we still don't have proof the brain alone can create qualia in our self-awareness. Do we?

I think Chi science would be definite once Neuroscience is finally mastered which may be several decades or a century later when we are no longer in this earth.

 

[Proton Soup]

Alfrez, you're just making a religious argument. you might as well be talking about the human spirit or soul. and perhaps that is what you're saying. but until you build some machine that manipulates this chi force, that's all it will be, religious belief.

 

[Alfrez]

Or we could accelerate the research if we want to gain benefit of it in our lifetime.

I've been researching about Chi for over a decade. In fact. I got interested in physics, biology, neuroscience, medical, chemistry because I wanted to comprehend what is chi.

I live in the East. We have centers where we literally can manipulate chi in a person's body. But the chi therapists just do the stuff without understanding the physics or biophysical basis of it.

Right now. After a decade, I still don't know what is Chi. For an easy solution, we could just say it is the Oxidative phosphorylation in our metabolic system. But it may not be that simple.

We use chi to control inflammation for example. We have many cases where people are about to get the foot amputated because of gangrene and we do chi therapy which influenced the cells to get the wound healing process accelerated and prevent the amputation.

In inflammation and the complement system of the innate immune system. We know cytokines and other inflammatory mediators travel in the bloodstream and the dynamics is controlled by brownian movements. So how can chi affect it.

Robert Becker has proposed additional pathways for the immune system and nervous system, and it is this acupuncture pathways that chi may attempt to influence.

I study biophysics to know more of it. The most I can reach is the Frohlich frequencies which travel in cellular components. Also Davydov Solitons may be involved. If so, Solitons may be what chi is all about.

Anyone has studied the biophysics of chi here? Of course, I'd be happy if it is nothing more than Oxidative phosphorylation in our metabolic system. But it is more complicated than that.

I'm only interested in the truth of what chi is, whether it is convensional or additional properties. I don't have any financial interest in it, hence not bias by whatever truth I'll find.

 

[Alfrez]

Alfrez, you're just making a religious argument. you might as well be talking about the human spirit or soul. and perhaps that is what you're saying. but until you build some machine that manipulates this chi force, that's all it will be, religious belief.

Ah. I can directly manipulate the chi force, whatever it is. I was a student of Pranic Healing in Asia:

http://www.pranichealing.com/what-pranic-healing

What we do is manipulate the chi in an person's body. I have massive experiences with it. And I've been interested in the biophysics of it.

Hmm.. instead of arguing if chi is real or not. Why not help me design a sensitive biochemical test equipment where I can emit chi to it and see what it can detect much like what the china experiments on chi in a few messages above.

Or those who already have the equipment(s). Come on. I challenge you all to do experiments with me. I need very sensitive equipments... even those used in neutrino experiments are better. I will emit the chi and you can see the results.

Again I'm not interested in chi because my life depends on it or any financial stake it it. No. I'm interested in the facts about it whatever it will be, whether just conventional or additional properties not yet discovered by science.

 

[berkeman]

Or those who already have the equipment(s). Come on. I challenge you all to do experiments with me. I need very sensitive equipments... even those used in neutrino experiments are better. I will emit the chi and you can see the results.

Can you point to any credible experiments that quantitatively show a physical effect from chi on an instrument? If not, and you want to come up with one, that's really on you and not on us.

My impression is that the chi-improvements in medical procedures that you describe are in line with the placebo effect, which we know is very real. There are different ways to elicit the placebo effect, and claims of chi for healing are just another way, IMO.

 

[Alfrez]

Can you point to any credible experiments that quantitatively show a physical effect from chi on an instrument? If not, and you want to come up with one, that's really on you and not on us.

My impression is that the chi-improvements in medical procedures that you describe are in line with the placebo effect, which we know is very real. There are different ways to elicit the placebo effect, and claims of chi for healing are just another way, IMO.

Here:

http://www.accessv.com/~yuan/yansci/time/2002_YanXin_Qigong_JSE.pdf

In china, there are many experiments like this. Unfortunately. Scientists in the US won't even do the experiments so how can they see the results if they won't even try it. Unfortunately (again), US physicists are expert in theoretical physics. So US physicists are the ones who can derive at the complete theory of Chi, which may be related to unknown physics that can be related to the real Theory of Everything. But they ignored it and left the understanding and investigations to other countries not expert in it.

Btw.. to talk about Chi, one must always talk of the Bioplasmic Body. Because it is the bioplasmic body in man that receives and use Chi, which may be akin to some bosons. In Pranic Healing, we fix disorders in the bioplasmic body. I personally know many patients who have defective bioplasmic body (they hear voices and stuff) who went to many doctors abroad and different countries and can't be cured. Then we detected their bioplasmic body is broken. We use a kind of chi to knit it. Then the hearing voices suddenly stop within the day (after years of hearing it) and the person gets back to normal the next time. So bioplasmic body has
something to do with our qualia or consciousness and its container in the human body.

I know it's difficult to prove it. China scientists are not revolutionary enough like US scientists in theoretical physics. While US scientists don't have access or better yet, ignore many stuff that doesn't have to do with the Standard Model, hence both of them can't solve the mystery of the Bioplasmic Body and Chi.

In a few years after the results of the Large Hadron Collider give us clue to the right physics of the unification, it may give us a clue of what bioplasmic body and chi could be.

Right now. We can do nothing much . Although we can do experiments like the china experiments. I'm looking for the equipments to do that. When I do. I'll present it to James Randi and win a million dollars.

 

[berkeman]

Here:

http://www.accessv.com/~yuan/yansci/time/2002_YanXin_Qigong_JSE.pdf

In china, there are many experiments like this. Unfortunately. Scientists in the US won't even do the experiments so how can they see the results if they won't even try it. Unfortunately (again), US physicists are expert in theoretical physics. So US physicists are the ones who can derive at the complete theory of Chi, which may be related to unknown physics that can be related to the real Theory of Everything. But they ignored it and left the understanding and investigations to other countries not expert in it.

Btw.. to talk about Chi, one must always talk of the Bioplasmic Body. Because it is the bioplasmic body in man that receives and use Chi, which may be akin to some bosons. In Pranic Healing, we fix disorders in the bioplasmic body. I personally know many patients who have defective bioplasmic body (they hear voices and stuff) who went to many doctors abroad and different countries and can't be cured. Then we detected their bioplasmic body is broken. We use a kind of chi to knit it. Then the hearing voices suddenly stop within the day (after years of hearing it) and the person gets back to normal the next time. So bioplasmic body has
something to do with our qualia or consciousness and its container in the human body.

I know it's difficult to prove it. China scientists are not revolutionary enough like US scientists in theoretical physics. While US scientists don't have access or better yet, ignore many stuff that doesn't have to do with the Standard Model, hence both of them can't solve the mystery of the Bioplasmic Body and Chi.

In a few years after the results of the Large Hadron Collider give us clue to the right physics of the unification, it may give us a clue of what bioplasmic body and chi could be.

Right now. We can do nothing much . Although we can do experiments like the china experiments. I'm looking for the equipments to do that. When I do. I'll present it to James Randi and win a million dollars.

Sorry, you posted that link earlier (I think that post got deleted). I'm asking for a link to an experiment with electronic instrumentation that shows some physical manifestation of chi. That's a pretty straightforward request. Why are you having difficulty complying?

 

[Alfrez]

Sorry, you posted that link earlier (I think that post got deleted). I'm asking for a link to an experiment with electronic instrumentation that shows some physical manifestation of chi. That's a pretty straightforward request. Why are you having difficulty complying?

http://www.reiki.org/reikinews/sciencemeasures.htm

Oh yes, SQUID (Superconducting Quantum Interference Device) magnetometer was used to detect the properties of chi. "Therapeutic Touch" involves chi projection from hands as described in the link above quoted thus:

"In the early 1980’s, Dr. John Zimmerman began a series of important studies on therapeutic touch, using a SQUID magnetometer at the University of Colorado School of Medicine in Denver. Zimmerman discovered that a huge pulsating biomagnetic field emanated from the hands of a TT practitioner. The frequency of the pulsations is not steady, but "sweeps" up and down, from 0.3 to 30 Hz (cycles per second), with most of the activity in the range of 7-8 Hz (Figure 2). The biomagnetic pulsations from the hands are in the same frequency range as brain waves and scientific studies of the frequencies necessary for healing indicate that they naturally sweep back and forth through the full range of therapeutic frequencies, thus being able to stimulate healing in any part of the body.

Confirmation of Zimmerman’s findings came in 1992, when Seto and colleagues, in Japan, studied practitioners of various martial arts and other healing methods. The "Qi emission" from the hands is so strong that they can be detected with a simple magnetometer consisting of two coils, of 80,000 turns of wire. Since then, a number of studies of QiGong practitioners have extended these investigations to the sound, light, and thermal fields emitted by healers. What is particularly interesting is that the pulsation frequency varies from moment to moment. Moreover, medical researchers developing pulsating magnetic field therapies are finding that these same frequencies are effective for ‘ jump starting’ healing in a variety of soft and hard tissues, even in patients unhealed for as long as 40 years. Specific frequencies stimulate the growth of nerves, bones, skin, capillaries, and ligaments. Of course Reiki practitioners and their patients have daily experiences of the healing process being "jump started," and academic medicine is now beginning to accept this therapy as logical and beneficial because of these new scientific findings. In Figure 2 we have bracketed portions of the signal that correspond to the frequencies used in medical devices that stimulate the healing of particular tissues. Individual differences in energy projection and detection."

 

[SkepticJ]

Would you like a million U.S. dollars for free? Prove the existence of this chi to James Randi.

 

[JaredJames]

http://www.reiki.org/reikinews/sciencemeasures.htm

Oh yes, SQUID (Superconducting Quantum Interference Device) magnetometer was used to detect the properties of chi. "Therapeutic Touch" involves chi projection from hands as described in the link above quoted thus:

...

Can you point us to any papers on the subject, not web pages from 'believer' websites?

 

[Alfrez]

Can you point us to any papers on the subject, not web pages from 'believer' websites?

Oh here it is:

Zimmerman J 1990 Laying-on-of-hands, healing and theraphetic touch: a testable theory. BEMI Currents. Journal of Bio-Electro-Magnetics Institute 24:8-17 [Available from Dr. John Zimmerman, 2490 West Moana Lane, Reno, Nevada, 89509-3936, USA. See also an article published in 1985: New technologies detect effects of healing hands. Brain/Mind Bulletin 10 (September 30):3]

 

[JaredJames]

Oh here it is:

Zimmerman J 1990 Laying-on-of-hands, healing and theraphetic touch: a testable theory. BEMI Currents. Journal of Bio-Electro-Magnetics Institute 24:8-17 [Available from Dr. John Zimmerman, 2490 West Moana Lane, Reno, Nevada, 89509-3936, USA. See also an article published in 1985: New technologies detect effects of healing hands. Brain/Mind Bulletin 10 (September 30):3]

So the only way I can get this is to write to the guy? Is there no link to it online?

 

[Alfrez]

So the only way I can get this is to write to the guy? Is there no link to it online?

I got it from the reference section the book "Energy Medicine: The Scientific Basis" by Dr. Oschman.

Anyway. Dr. Zimmerman can be reached at:

http://www.healthgrades.com/directo...s/dr-md-reports/dr-john-zimmerman-md-544defdb

"Dr. John Zimmerman practices cardiology, clinical cardiac electrophysiology and internal medicine in Hackensack, New Jersey. Dr. Zimmerman graduated with an MD 33 years ago."

Clinic Address:

Electrophysiology Associates
20 Prospect Avenue Suite 701
Hackensack, NJ, 07601
Phone Number: (201) 996-2287

Well. I don't live in the United States and haven't even set foot there so I can't visit the guy. Calling him long distance would cost a lot of money so just call him there, get the reference and debunk him if you can and do medical science a service.

Hmm... ok.. I'll find a way to get that reference from him. I almost forgot about Zimmerman stuff. Maybe I'll get a SQUID and measure my chi myself.

I'll look for his email address and write him. And update you. Debunking him is great.

 

[Alfrez]

I'd love to have Zimmerman stuff debunked because based on experience, Chi is something even stranger revolving on the more exotic aspect of physics and could very likely be related to the Theory of Everything.

If we discover the physics of Chi. It would advance humanity a thousand fold. And the world will never be the same again.

 

[JaredJames]

I don't live in the US and regardless aren't going to contact him for the paper. I want to see something published / mainstream. I can write a paper about how I flew to the US using only the power of thought, but that doesn't mean anything.

If his work was accepted, it should appear somewhere and be referenced by other papers - not just a bunch of websites who simply want it to be true.

I've Googled this guy and his paper and it's always the same reference / quote to it popping up. There is never any more and certainly no link to the original paper.

Was it actually published or is it just something that was put out there and spread like wild fire?

If we discover the physics of Chi. It would advance humanity a thousand fold. And the world will never be the same again.

Assuming it even exists. So far we have no evidence showing it does.

 

[drankin]

The following is my opinion. Chi is a theory based on actual accupuncture. Accupuncture has some effectiveness and I believe that since the Chinese couldn't actually "see" why it worked they just created a theory that seemed to explain it. It's already partially accepted as a medical alternative. My health insurance covers it even. Someday we'll scientifically know what it is going on with it. But it won't be called Chi when we do.