Is it selfish to look for research outside of your university?

[Phys12]

After thinking a lot about my posts earlier about doing research elsewhere over the summer and discussing things with my professors, I wanted to thank the people here (specifically @Vanadium 50, for being straightforward) for what they said earlier as it made me reflect on my thoughts and opinions about UTA. While I was always grateful for the opportunities UTA provided me, I think I was way too focused on the future to forget the present and quite obsessed frankly, with the idea of going into a "top" school. UTA is one of the best HEP places in the US; it took me a while to realize that and I didn't know that doing research in just your institute during your undergraduate degree wasn't looked down upon.

I wanted to clarify one thing, though. I don't think I know for sure which research area I want to pursue in grad school. There are certain areas that I still have not conducted any research in and would like to participate and see if that's something I would like to do in the future. Is it still a good idea to go someplace else during the summer and see if that's something that I might want to do? Or is it too selfish to abandon what I am doing at UTA with the professors here? And also the idea of going to a different place sounds exciting!

Thanks!

 

[ZapperZ]

First of all, you need to get into the mindset that ANY kind of undergraduate research is a valuable experience. It really doesn't matter if it will eventually be in the area that you want to go into. Instead, you should look at it from the point of view of the SKILLS that you may acquire in doing the work. Not only that, it gives you an insight into how research work is carried out.

Secondly, there are many undergraduate research opportunities elsewhere in the form of internships. You need to look at Dept. of Energy's SULI programs, you should look at various US National Lab and look at their summer internships, and finally, the one that I'm familiar with, the Lee Teng internship program that introduces undergraduates to accelerator science. You should ask one of your professors of other summer internships that he/she might be aware of. If your school is big on HEP, someone may know of an internship program at CERN, maybe.

Zz.

 

[Vanadium 50]

So, let's look back at some of the advice you got last time you asked this question. Or maybe the time before that. Or the time before that. It's so hard to keep things straight when you keep asking the same thing over and over and over.

Some of those research experiences can be pretty positive.

But I tend to recommend doing a great job in a local research group for at least a year before looking for opportunities elsewhere.

First of all, a great recommendation letter will increase your odds. Second, 8-10 week summer stints, while intensive and productive, are seldom as in depth as 9-12 month opportunities at the home institution. Third, those mentors at your home institution really get to know you the best and offer the best advice junior and senior year.

My advice would tend to be open to remaining at your home institution over the summer and working in a research group there until you have logged enough time with that group to really be productive and earn their good favor. You can have a more productive summer in a group you have already spent several months in than in a group you are only spending the summer in. A 10 week summer period has 400 potential work hours; whereas, you might not even get that much time in from now to the end of the academic year during the semesters.

Most departments have a culture and approach for connecting undergrads with research groups. If you haven't figured out what that is yet, I would make a two page resume, and bring copies around visiting faculty whose research has some interest for you. Even if the first few can't fit you into their groups, eventually you will run into someone who can OR someone who will point you in the right direction.

But you should not be selfish. From the faculty end, they want students in their lab who will work produce more for the group than the effort they need to expend getting them up to speed. Eagerness to work elsewhere over the summer SAYS

I AM SELFISH AND WILL TAKE WHAT I LEARN IN YOUR LAB AND BENEFIT SOMEONE ELSE.

Eventually, they will not mind if you spread your wings and pursue other options, but undergrads owe a decent period of productivity to the group that gives them their first chance. 9-12 months of productivity before exploring other options is a fair balance.

Questions for you.

1. What has changed since the last N times you asked about this?
2. What are your opportunities at UTA? More importantly, what commitments have you made to people there?
3. What are your opportunities outside UTA? If you haven't already landed, or at least applied for, a position, the odds of getting such a position is low. Have you made any commitments there?
4. Last time (or was it the time before that?) you ended up admitting you really didn't want our opinions, just validation for what you have already decided. Is this the case this time too?

 

[Phys12]

Questions for you.

1. What has changed since the last N times you asked about this?

I've realized that it's not an absolute requirement of doing research elsewhere in order to get into a good graduate school. I've learned a lot more about the researches being conducted at UTA. Stopped obsessing over trying to get into the best graduate schools (although I still want to, it won't be the end of the world if I don't get into one).

2. What are your opportunities at UTA? More importantly, what commitments have you made to people there?

Tonnes, Astronomy, HEP, Condensed Matter, Biological Physics, Nanoparticles, Physics Education, Space Physics and a few other. If I understand correctly what you mean by "commitment," then I have a few research projects that I am working on (one of which I'm the lead), and I'm also the lab manager of my lab here.

3. What are your opportunities outside UTA? If you haven't already landed, or at least applied for, a position, the odds of getting such a position is low. Have you made any commitments there?

I've applied for MIT MSRP, but I am not sure if I will get a position there. I've been talking to a professor at a different university about working there over the summer and have been doing some simulations to see if any of that interests me.

Last time (or was it the time before that?) you ended up admitting you really didn't want our opinions, just validation for what you have already decided. Is this the case this time too?

Nope. I genuinely want to make sure if I am being selfish or not. If I am, I will drop the idea of working on a project outside of what my professors are doing and spend the summer here.

P.S. The lab manager commitment may be okay to not be here for with my professor since he asked me if I wanted to go somewhere else during the summer to work on a project under a professor that he knows.

 

[Phys12]

Also, I would like to say that I've been conducting research here ever since I got here so by the end of this semester, would've spent almost 2 years working for professors here (2 years for 1 and 1 year for another).

 

[Phys12]

Secondly, there are many undergraduate research opportunities elsewhere in the form of internships. You need to look at Dept. of Energy's SULI programs, you should look at various US National Lab and look at their summer internships, and finally, the one that I'm familiar with, the Lee Teng internship program that introduces undergraduates to accelerator science. You should ask one of your professors of other summer internships that he/she might be aware of. If your school is big on HEP, someone may know of an internship program at CERN, maybe.
Zz.

I'm not a US citizen, so a lot of them aren't accessible to me.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Your position seems to be that you used to want to pursue a particular course of action because of base and selfish motives, but you have seen the light and turned over a new leaf. Now you want to pursue the exact same course of action, this time for pure and noble motives.

Let me just say that not everyone is going to buy this.

While in general, it's good to see how things are done elsewhere, in your case I am much less sure. As I said just a few months back, the last time you asked this, do you really want your letters of recommendation to say "Academically a good student, but is selfish and ungrateful. He has received a full scholarship to UTA, but nevertheless has shown no gratitude and has spent his entire college career making it clear that he feels UTA is beneath him and that he is uninterested in pursuing any opportunities with us. Despite having our own HEP program which welcomed him as a student, he elected to spend his summer taking an unpaid position with another university he felt was better. Expect him to treat your university the same way."

If your answer to that is "Well, I used to be selfish and ungrateful, but no more! Now the same actions arise from pure and noble motives!" that may not be convincing enough to change the letters.

 

[Phys12]

Your position seems to be that you used to want to pursue a particular course of action because of base and selfish motives, but you have seen the light and turned over a new leaf. Now you want to pursue the exact same course of action, this time for pure and noble motives.

Let me just say that not everyone is going to buy this.

While in general, it's good to see how things are done elsewhere, in your case I am much less sure. As I said just a few months back, the last time you asked this, do you really want your letters of recommendation to say "Academically a good student, but is selfish and ungrateful. He has received a full scholarship to UTA, but nevertheless has shown no gratitude and has spent his entire college career making it clear that he feels UTA is beneath him and that he is uninterested in pursuing any opportunities with us. Despite having our own HEP program which welcomed him as a student, he elected to spend his summer taking an unpaid position with another university he felt was better. Expect him to treat your university the same way."

If your answer to that is "Well, I used to be selfish and ungrateful, but no more! Now the same actions arise from pure and noble motives!" that may not be convincing enough to change the letters.

Okay, so if it really is the case then I think I'll stay at UTA over the summer. Not necessarily because of what the recommendation letters will say, but because the very act itself wouldn't be right.

I have another question, then. I have seen people apply for SULIs, REUs and other summer research opportunities outside of their university (some of them from my own). Are they all being ungrateful? What exactly then is the purpose of these programs inviting students from outside of the university that's hosting such a program?

 

[Dr. Courtney]

I have another question, then. I have seen people apply for SULIs, REUs and other summer research opportunities outside of their university (some of them from my own). Are they all being ungrateful? What exactly then is the purpose of these programs inviting students from outside of the university that's hosting such a program?

It depends on how much you have contributed to the research groups at your home institution. If you have so impressed your local research group that applying to an external program is _their_ idea and not yours, then they think it is right and fair to open those doors for you. If you have reached the point in the local groups that the time you've saved them with your skill and labor far exceed the time and effort they invested in training you, you have probably reached a point where it may be unselfish to apply for external opportunities.

I mentor several undergraduate physics and chemistry majors. My advice to most is that it is not unreasonable to feel their local research supervisor out about outside summer opportunities after 12-24 months of being highly productive in the local lab or research group. Signs of high productivity: 1) Being included as a co-author on a publication 2) Being nominated for awards 3) Being given a significant raise 4) Being offered 40 hours a week in the summer or over breaks 5) Having your research supervisor suggest you should apply to top graduate schools 6) Being highly regarded as essential by grad students and post docs in the group.

My own experience and that of students I've mentored is that local research groups really want what's best for their undergraduates and will not want to hold you back by keeping you local if you have truly excelled and can benefit from an external summer program. They know the best external undergraduate research programs are great stepping stones to the better graduate programs, and they want to make their departments look good with their students and future graduates accomplishing great things. But they better understand the real differences between "being good" and "looking good." They want to form research students who are truly really good at research. You seem more interested in "looking good" on future applications.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Are they all being ungrateful?

What difference does it make?

 

[StatGuy2000]

@Vanadium 50 , while I understand your exasperation with responding to the OP, it's worth keeping in mind that he/she is from India. As someone who lives in an area with a large Indian community (similar to other Asian communities) and being of part-Asian ancestry myself, I am well aware that children often face tremendous pressure to succeed academically and to enter the most prestigious school imaginable (I have heard anecdotally of one case where parents pressured their eldest son to enter Harvard, and when he was accepted to Duke, his father thought his son was a failure). This is a not uncommon characteristic of ethnic communities who either themselves (or their country) often only a few generations removed from extreme poverty and see education as a ticket out of poverty.

I hate to say this, but such a perspective is something that white Americans, Canadians, Australians or those from western European countries (I presume you are one of these) have a difficult time understanding without serious thought and effort.
So I would humbly suggest you might want to try to empathize with his/her situation.

 

[Phys12]

What difference does it make?

It doesn't make a difference in my actions, but I was curious.

 

[Phys12]

It depends on how much you have contributed to the research groups at your home institution. If you have so impressed your local research group that applying to an external program is _their_ idea and not yours, then they think it is right and fair to open those doors for you. If you have reached the point in the local groups that the time you've saved them with your skill and labor far exceed the time and effort they invested in training you, you have probably reached a point where it may be unselfish to apply for external opportunities.

Okay, then I suppose it's best to continue being in my group and let my professors direct me places.

I mentor several undergraduate physics and chemistry majors. My advice to most is that it is not unreasonable to feel their local research supervisor out about outside summer opportunities after 12-24 months of being highly productive in the local lab or research group. Signs of high productivity: 1) Being included as a co-author on a publication 2) Being nominated for awards 3) Being given a significant raise 4) Being offered 40 hours a week in the summer or over breaks 5) Having your research supervisor suggest you should apply to top graduate schools 6) Being highly regarded as essential by grad students and post docs in the group.

I've seen 5 out of the 6 signs for me in my group.

You seem more interested in "looking good" on future applications.

I wouldn't say that I am more interested in "looking good" than being good but it certainly was a concern for me since I am worried about getting/not getting into a graduate school.