Is there life in the universe, and if so has it visited Earth?

[Ivan Seeking]

Developments based on downed extraterrestrial vehicles may result in these "ufos".

That gets into conspiracy theories, which are not appropriate for discussion here.

 

[baywax]

The fact that the Galaxy does not thrive with alien civilizations suggests that either we are alone or that civilizations don't last that much.

An historical and terrestrial example of a longer lasting civilization is Egypt which lasted 3000 years and they didn't make it to the moon but there are indications they were trading with South America. We could look at Egypt as part and parcel with the world civilization which has culminated in unmanned probes to Mars and golf on the moon.

 

[baywax]

That gets into conspiracy theories, which are not appropriate for discussion here.

Sorry... speculation acts as a magnet for loonies... (which are dollars in this patch of the woods!)

 

[baywax]

I have this urge to vote for Obama... must find polling station in Blaine...

 

[gareth]

I wonder will the US ever release their UFO reports like the MoD in the UK?

Maybe Obama will, who knows!

 

[Ivan Seeking]

We have probably thousands of U.S. Government files linked in the UFO Napster.

Files are released upon request through the Freedom of Information Act, but information still considered to be sensitive is blacked out. Note that information about the UFO is generally not blacked out; mostly just the names of individuals, the names of countries, etc.

Of course the tricky part is that you have to know a file exists before you can ask for it.

 

[Proton Soup]

That gets into conspiracy theories, which are not appropriate for discussion here.

good grief, it's no different than this religious belief of extraterrestrials zipping about the planet in crafts of pulsating light. Carl Sagan was bitten by this bug, too, despite no more evidence than wishful thinking.

 

[CEL]

An historical and terrestrial example of a longer lasting civilization is Egypt which lasted 3000 years and they didn't make it to the moon but there are indications they were trading with South America. We could look at Egypt as part and parcel with the world civilization which has culminated in unmanned probes to Mars and golf on the moon.

First of all, the Egyptian technology could hardly lead to self destruction. Our nuclear technology can.
Secondly, the presence of Egyptians in South America is speculative.
Third, for a civilization to spread through the Galaxy it will take millions of years. A tiny fraction of the life of the Galaxy, but a very long time for a civilization.

 

[baywax]

for a civilization to spread through the Galaxy it will take millions of years.

What makes you think that?

It only took a few minutes to "discover" fire and the wheel. It could take just as short a time to discover a way to "spread throughout the galaxy".

 

[CEL]

What makes you think that?

It only took a few minutes to "discover" fire and the wheel. It could take just as short a time to discover a way to "spread throughout the galaxy".

For all we know, and there are evidences of that, the speed of light is a limit. Since the Galaxy has a diameter of 100000 ly, it takes light that much time to cross the galaxy. An object with mass will take much longer.
And don't come with "warp drive" or something alike. We are talking about science, not sci-fi.

 

[baywax]

For all we know, and there are evidences of that, the speed of light is a limit. Since the Galaxy has a diameter of 100000 ly, it takes light that much time to cross the galaxy. An object with mass will take much longer.
And don't come with "warp drive" or something alike. We are talking about science, not sci-fi.

We are talking about unidentified flying objects that allegedly defy the capabilities of any conventional flying objects we know of. This would bring the use of wormholes, superposition and dimensional shifts into the realm of the possible "discoveries" a civilization could utilize.

 

[WaveJumper]

We are talking about unidentified flying objects that allegedly defy the capabilities of any conventional flying objects we know of. This would bring the use of wormholes, superposition and dimensional shifts

Being able to choose a particular state out of all possible states of a spaceship is a good idea for intergalactical travel, although i always thought it was the thing that we don't talk about on science forums that ultimately selects which future events will take place. Wouldn't that make us practically gods? Sounds too good to be true, but I'm not dismissing it as a means to an end, if we survive long enough, we might become something close to gods.

 

[DaveC426913]

We are talking about unidentified flying objects that allegedly defy the capabilities of any conventional flying objects we know of. This would bring the use of wormholes, superposition and dimensional shifts into the realm of the possible "discoveries" a civilization could utilize.

It's a bit of a jump, wouldn't you say, from merely
...maneuvering faster than 21st century human technology...
to
... spitting in the face of fundamental laws of the universe ...?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Yes, no need to go off a cliff here. We can only speak to the alleged facts. If we can't readily explain an event, that doesn't justify unfounded speculation. Your vote in the poll was your chance to make a leap-of-faith statement.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

And don't come with "warp drive" or something alike. We are talking about science, not sci-fi.

To be fair, almost by definition, any technology had by a race of beings a million, or even a billion years more advanced than us, would be science fiction to us. And we do have some exotic ideas of our own.

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=204637
http://www.nasa.gov/centers/glenn/technology/warp/warp.html
http://www.ufoskeptic.org/JBIS.pdf

We just aren't in a position to speculate as to what idea if any might eventually be practical. We can only ask if all have been ruled out. If we find credible debate among experts, then clearly the case is not closed. Also, there is always the chance that somebody like Heim will come along and change the game.
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=106059

If you ask what technology we might possesses in a billion years, were "humans" to survive that long, you would also have to ask what species we would be, because we certainly wouldn't be remotely similar to modern humans.

 

[baywax]

It's a bit of a jump, wouldn't you say, from merely
...maneuvering faster than 21st century human technology...
to
... spitting in the face of fundamental laws of the universe ...?

For sure. My mistake. I'm not an MD or an astrophysicist but I know spitting is unsanitary and highly offensive. I'd never, in a million light years, spit on what you or anyone considered to be fundamental laws of any kind.

How can we explain objects "flying" at 1900 mph over Crawford, TX. And if we decide that they are extraterrestrial objects, how do we explain how they got to earth?

 

[gareth]

For sure. My mistake. I'm not an MD or an astrophysicist but I know spitting is unsanitary and highly offensive. I'd never, in a million light years, spit on what you or anyone considered to be fundamental laws of any kind.

How can we explain objects "flying" at 1900 mph over Crawford, TX. And if we decide that they are extraterrestrial objects, how do we explain how they got to earth?

I agree, there must be some mild spitting involved.

 

[CEL]

How can we explain objects "flying" at 1900 mph over Crawford, TX. And if we decide that they are extraterrestrial objects, how do we explain how they got to earth?

Any massive object moving in the atmosphere at such speed would cause an enormous sonic boom.
The fact that no such sound has been observed suggests that the "flying" object was massless. Probably an electromagnetic phenomenon.

 

[gareth]

Any massive object moving in the atmosphere at such speed would cause an enormous sonic boom.
The fact that no such sound has been observed suggests that the "flying" object was massless. Probably an electromagnetic phenomenon.

That's assuming the object is propelled by a known propulsion system.

 

[CEL]

That's assuming the object is propelled by a known propulsion system.

No, the sonic boom is caused by the movement of the object through the air. Even without propulsion an object moving that fast would cause the boom.

 

[gareth]

No, the sonic boom is caused by the movement of the object through the air. Even without propulsion an object moving that fast would cause the boom.

Ah yes, I did say known propulsion system.

The object is unidentified, therefore its mechanism for moving in space is unidentified.

Any attempt to guess this mechanism is purely speculative (quiet jet engine, warp drive, wormholes, extra dimensional travel...the list goes on).

You claim that the phenomena might be caused by electromagnetic effects, but I find this hard to visualise.

Shiny metallic discs darting around at Mach 3, showing up on radar and reported by several wintesses, that would be a pretty neat light trick.

 

[CEL]

Ah yes, I did say known propulsion system.

The object is unidentified, therefore its mechanism for moving in space is unidentified.

Any attempt to guess this mechanism is purely speculative (quiet jet engine, warp drive, wormholes, extra dimensional travel...the list goes on).

No matter what the propulsion system is. Any object moving through the air at Mach 3 will produce a sonic boom.

You claim that the phenomena might be caused by electromagnetic effects, but I find this hard to visualise.

Shiny metallic discs darting around at Mach 3, showing up on radar and reported by several wintesses, that would be a pretty neat light trick.

Electromagnetic phenomena can show on radar screens, since radar uses EM waves in detection and ranging (this is the meaning of the device: RAdio Detection And Ranging).
Visual witnesses are not reliable. Of course, if there are witnesses there should be made an investigation, but witnessing alone is not accepted in science and is accepted in a court only as additional evidence. If the police does a lousy job, no amount of witnessing will be accepted in court.

 

[gareth]

No matter what the propulsion system is. Any object moving through the air at Mach 3 will produce a sonic boom.

Again,

you are assuming the object is actually moving through the air and no other possiblity.

There might be some crazy physics going on which I am not going to speculate about (but I did mention briefly in my previous post).

I think military pilots reports are fairly reliable, but that's just my opinion.

 

[CEL]

Again,

you are assuming the object is actually moving through the air and no other possiblity.

There might be some crazy physics going on which I am not going to speculate about (but I did mention briefly in my previous post).

I don't believe in ghosts. If there was some crazy physics by which an object could move through the air without affecting it, it would be easier to make it invisible to radar.
With the well behaved physics we know it is possible to build stealth planes that are almost invisible to radar.

 

[gareth]

I don't believe in ghosts. If there was some crazy physics by which an object could move through the air without affecting it, it would be easier to make it invisible to radar.
With the well behaved physics we know it is possible to build stealth planes that are almost invisible to radar.

Define ghosts.

Who is trying to make it invisible to radar? There are a lot of UFO reports that show that these things aren't shy, and in some cases seem to go out of their way to be seen.

I guess all I'm saying is we don't know what they are, and for us to assume to know all the science behind the phenomena is just plain wrong.

Whether it being little green men, a modern artifact of the human mind, us from the future, us from the past, military toys, swamp gas, weather baloons, ball lightning or otherwise, we, the public, do not know what it is and should just keep an open mind about the science involved.

 

[CEL]

Define ghosts.

Who is trying to make it invisible to radar? There are a lot of UFO reports that show that these things aren't shy, and in some cases seem to go out of their way to be seen.

I guess all I'm saying is we don't know what they are, and for us to assume to know all the science behind the phenomena is just plain wrong.

Whether it being little green men, a modern artifact of the human mind, us from the future, us from the past, military toys, swamp gas, weather baloons, ball lightning or otherwise, we, the public, do not know what it is and should just keep an open mind about the science involved.

I agree that we must have an open mind, but not so open that our brains fall from the openings.

 

[DaveC426913]

I don't believe in ghosts. If there was some crazy physics by which an object could move through the air without affecting it, it would be easier to make it invisible to radar.
With the well behaved physics we know it is possible to build stealth planes that are almost invisible to radar.

You draw hasty conclusions. I can easily postulate objects moving through air at multi-Mach speeds without making a somic boom.

An optical effect could do that.

I'm not suggesting that is the answer, I'm just suggesting you unnecessarily rule out possibilities.

 

[gareth]

I agree that we must have an open mind, but not so open that our brains fall from the openings.

Lets say you went back in time, told someone from the 1500's that in the future we could fly through air faster than sound could travel, communicate with people in another land using invisible rays, light heat and power every home with the motion of particles we can't even see and play a round of golf on the moon.

Try telling them to have an open mind.

Some things just plain don't know yet.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

How can we explain objects "flying" at 1900 mph over Crawford, TX. And if we decide that they are extraterrestrial objects, how do we explain how they got to earth?

If we can offer a reasonable explanation for an event, we do, and if we can't, we dont. That's as far as we can go here.

There is nothing wrong with a little mystery.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

A potentially related topic.
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=116408

 

[baywax]

Here's the details on "The Fifth-Dimension Catapult".

 

[CEL]

You draw hasty conclusions. I can easily postulate objects moving through air at multi-Mach speeds without making a somic boom.

An optical effect could do that.

I'm not suggesting that is the answer, I'm just suggesting you unnecessarily rule out possibilities.

If you read my previous post, I was referring to material objects. I suggested that the supposed UFO could be an electromagnetic phenomenon, since it was supposedly caught in radar screens.

 

[CEL]

Lets say you went back in time, told someone from the 1500's that in the future we could fly through air faster than sound could travel, communicate with people in another land using invisible rays, light heat and power every home with the motion of particles we can't even see and play a round of golf on the moon.

Try telling them to have an open mind.

Some things just plain don't know yet.

And if I told them that a material object could fly at high speed in the air without causing a shock wave, they would doubt me. And I doubt it now.
The fact is that some ideas, that once were thought crazy, are now real. Other ideas, that were once thought crazy, are still thought crazy.
They have laughed at Galileo and they have laughed at Bozo, the clown. This does not make Bozo a scientist.

 

[DaveC426913]

If you read my previous post, I was referring to material objects. I suggested that the supposed UFO could be an electromagnetic phenomenon, since it was supposedly caught in radar screens.

Yes. I caught that.

I'm was just pointing out that assuming any material object will have to create a sonic boom of the right size to be detected is a bit hasty.

A few decades ago I would have thought that any material object would have had to show up on radar too.

There's more'n one way to skin a cat.

 

[baywax]

Someone from the philosophical bend might say that a hologram could achieve radar stealth and hyper speeds.

This can also be done with a search light or projector.

Both of these fall into the realm of DaveC426913's "optical effect".