Legendre Transforms: U=U(S,V) vs U(V,P)

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In summary, the conversation discusses the use of Legendre transforms in thermodynamics and how they can be used to define different thermodynamic potentials with different pairs of independent variables. The fundamental laws of thermodynamics dictate that the internal energy is a function of entropy and volume, but other potentials can be defined by using Legendre transformations. The conversation also mentions the use of different pairs of variables in different books, but ultimately concludes that the natural variables for the internal energy are entropy and volume.
  • #1
matematikuvol
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When people do Legendre transforms they suppose that [tex]U=U(S,V)[/tex]. But you can see in some books that heat is defined by:
[tex]dQ=(\frac{\partial U}{\partial P})_{V}dP+[(\frac{\partial U}{\partial V})_P+P]dV[/tex]

So they supposed obviously that [tex]U=U(V,P)[/tex].

In some books you can that internal energy is function of [tex]T,P[/tex], and in some books function of [tex]V,T[/tex]. Why then in definition of Legendre transforms of thermodynamics potential we use [tex]U=U(S,V)[/tex]. Tnx for the answer.
 
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  • #2
You can, of course, express any thermodynamic potential by any pair of quantities you like, but there are "natural" ones. E.g. for the internal energy, [itex]U[/itex], the natural variables are [itex]S[/itex] and [itex]V[/itex], because of the fundamental laws of thermodynamics:

[tex]\mathrm{d} U=T \mathrm{d} S-p \mathrm{d} V.[/tex]

Now you can define other potentials to have other "natural" independent variables by Legendre transformations. E.g. the free energy trades [itex]S[/itex] for [itex]T[/itex] via:

[tex]F=U-T S.[/tex]

Taking the total differential gives

[tex]\mathrm{d} F=\mathrm{d} U - T \mathrm{d} S-S \mathrm{d} T=-S \mathrm{d} T-p \mathrm{d} V,[/tex]

etc.
 
  • #3
Tnx. Do I get something with Legendre transforms if I defined
[tex]U=U(T,P)[/tex]?
 

1. What is a Legendre Transform?

A Legendre transform is a mathematical operation that allows one to switch between different sets of variables in a function. It is commonly used in thermodynamics to switch between the variables of internal energy (U), entropy (S), volume (V), and pressure (P).

2. What is the difference between U=U(S,V) and U(V,P)?

The first expression, U=U(S,V), represents the internal energy of a system as a function of entropy and volume. The second expression, U(V,P), represents the internal energy as a function of volume and pressure. The Legendre transform is used to switch between these two representations, as they are both valid ways of describing the internal energy of a system.

3. Why do we need to use Legendre transforms in thermodynamics?

Legendre transforms are useful in thermodynamics because they allow us to switch between different sets of variables while still preserving the information contained in the original function. This allows us to simplify calculations and make connections between different thermodynamic properties.

4. Can you give an example of when U=U(S,V) and U(V,P) are both needed?

One example where both representations are needed is in the derivation of the Maxwell relations, which relate partial derivatives of thermodynamic properties to each other. In order to derive these relations, we need to switch between the two representations using Legendre transforms.

5. How are Legendre transforms related to thermodynamic potentials?

Thermodynamic potentials, such as the Helmholtz free energy (F) and the Gibbs free energy (G), are related to the internal energy (U) through Legendre transforms. For example, the Helmholtz free energy is defined as F=U-TS, where T is temperature and S is entropy. This is a Legendre transform of the internal energy, which is a function of entropy and volume.

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