Magnets in space -- AKA vacuum

[DEMOCRATIS369]

Please excuse my ignorance, I am 11years old. I have been wondering will magnets work in a vacuum A.K.A SPACE. Thank you for any and all answers.

 

[e.bar.goum]

What do you think?

 

[DEMOCRATIS369]

Please excuse my ignorance, I am 11years old. I have been wondering will magnets work in a vacuum A.K.A SPACE. Thank you for any and all answers.

To be honest I am completely new to physics, but my guess would be no. I believe the reasons that magnets work is due to the Earth's Magnetic poles. Much as I think that aerodynamic coefficient of a hypothetical spacsphip has no bearing on how it moves thru space, in order for aerodynamics to be used efficiently there needs to be either gravity or anatmosphere and space has neither. It's hard to find friends my age because everyone thinks I'm weird.

 

[russ_watters]

Actually, magnets work due to their own magnetism, not due to an interaction with Earth's magnetic field.

By the way; impressive writing skill for 11 years old and it's good you're thinking about these things at a young age. And if any kids think you're weird because you are smart, just tell them that if they aren't nice to you, you won't give them a job.

 

[e.bar.goum]

To be honest I am completely new to physics, but my guess would be no. I believe the reasons that magnets work is due to the Earth's Magnetic poles. Much as I think that aerodynamic coefficients of a hypothetical spaceship is because space is a vacuum, in order for aerodynamics to be used efficiently there needs to be either gravity or an environment and space has neither. It's hard to find friends my age because everyone thinks I'm weird.

Not quite! But it's good that you put some thought into it. I'm going to break this down a bit.

Firstly, there is a difference between "working in a vacuum" and "working away from gravity" and "working away from a magnetic field" - I can make a very good vacuum in a lab, and it will still experience the same gravity and magnetic fields that I do standing next to it - all a vacuum means is that there aren't any (or very many) particles.

Secondly, which is what you actually meant: magnets will indeed work away from any external magnetic fields like the Earth's magnetic field, and they'll work perfectly well. Magnets make their own magnetic fields, and in fact, for most magnets, their magnetic field is much much stronger than that of the Earth. On the surface, the strength of the Earths magnetic field is about 25-65 microteslas. The strength of a fridge magnet is about 5 milliteslas -100 times stronger, and fridge magnets are about as weak a magnet as you can buy. So, really, magnets don't care too much about the Earth.

Also, it's really great you're thinking about this at 11. And writing well. Welcome to PF, we won't think you're weird here!

 

[DEMOCRATIS369]

Not quite! But it's good that you put some thought into it. I'm going to break this down a bit.

Firstly, there is a difference between "working in a vacuum" and "working away from gravity" and "working away from a magnetic field" - I can make a very good vacuum in a lab, and it will still experience the same gravity and magnetic fields that I do standing next to it - all a vacuum means is that there aren't any (or very many) particles.

Secondly, which is what you actually meant: magnets will indeed work away from any external magnetic fields like the Earth's magnetic field, and they'll work perfectly well. Magnets make their own magnetic fields, and in fact, for most magnets, their magnetic field is much much stronger than that of the Earth. On the surface, the strength of the Earths magnetic field is about 25-65 microteslas. The strength of a fridge magnet is about 5 milliteslas -100 times stronger, and fridge magnets are about as weak a magnet as you can buy. So, really, magnets don't care too much about the Earth.

Also, it's really great you're thinking about this at 11. And writing well. Welcome to PF, we won't think you're weird here!

Thank you for your insight, Maybe I have found an outlet for my thoughts and ideas. I am not trying to sound narcissistic but my teachers often get angry when I correct them, wether it is physics or World History:-). Thank You again

 

[DaveC426913]

...my teachers often get angry when I correct them...

If you don't irritate your teachers occasionally, you're not learning hard enough!

 

[DEMOCRATIS369]

I guess so, my most pressing issue is I think that my teacher's think of me as a pain, or a threat . Science is the only class I really enjoy. I won the science fair last year by assembling a pulsejet that is functional. I am glad to have found this forum where I don't feel like I am the only one who uses the gleal cells in my brain correctly:-). THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH, IT FEELS AWESOME TO TALK TO PEOPLAS YOURSELVES WHO ARE HONESTLY GENIUSES.

 

[DEMOCRATIS369]

Actually, magnets work due to their own magnetism, not due to an interaction with Earth's magnetic field.

By the way; impressive writing skill for 11 years old and it's good you're thinking about these things at a young age. And if any kids think you're weird because you are smart, just tell them that if they aren't nice to you, you won't give them a job.

I have been thinking about how us an in (HOMO SAPIEN SAPIEN), A YEAR TO ME SEEMS TO TAKE FOREVER BUT MY MOM , I WILL NOT GIVE HER AGE SHE WOULD KILL ME:-). SHE ALWAYS IS SAYING TIME FLIES. BUT I AM STARTING TO BELIEVE THAT HOW WE PERCIEVE PASSAGE OF TIME. THE ONLY WAY I HAVEE FIGURED OUT HOW TO GIVE IS AN ANALOGY. PLEASE FOLLOW THIS AND LET ME KNOW IF I AM ON THE CORRECT PATH. HERE IS MY THEORY WHEN YOU ARE TEN YEARS OF AGE A YEAR IS ONLY ACCOUNTING FOR ONE TENTH OF YOUR LIFE. THAT BEING SAID IF YOU ARE FIFTY YEARS OF AGE THAT YEAR IS ONLY ONE FIFTIETH OF YOUR LIFE. SO I BELIEVE OUR PERCEPTION OF TIME CHANGES.(WE BELIEVE THAT TIME SPEEDS UP AS U AGE,NOT ME BUT PEOPLE IN GENERAL, HOWEVER I DO BELIEVE THAT THERE IS SOMETHING TO THIS PHENOMENON.) OMG I HOPE I DIDN'T JUST MAKE MYSELF SOUND IGNORANT. SORRY GUYS.

 

[ZapperZ]

I have been thinking about how us an in (HOMO SAPIEN SAPIEN), A YEAR TO ME SEEMS TO TAKE FOREVER BUT MY MOM , I WILL NOT GIVE HER AGE SHE WOULD KILL ME:-). SHE ALWAYS IS SAYING TIME FLIES. BUT I AM STARTING TO BELIEVE THAT HOW WE PERCIEVE PASSAGE OF TIME. THE ONLY WAY I HAVEE FIGURED OUT HOW TO GIVE IS AN ANALOGY. PLEASE FOLLOW THIS AND LET ME KNOW IF I AM ON THE CORRECT PATH. HERE IS MY THEORY WHEN YOU ARE TEN YEARS OF AGE A YEAR IS ONLY ACCOUNTING FOR ONE TENTH OF YOUR LIFE. THAT BEING SAID IF YOU ARE FIFTY YEARS OF AGE THAT YEAR IS ONLY ONE FIFTIETH OF YOUR LIFE. SO I BELIEVE OUR PERCEPTION OF TIME CHANGES.(WE BELIEVE THAT TIME SPEEDS UP AS U AGE,NOT ME BUT PEOPLE IN GENERAL, HOWEVER I DO BELIEVE THAT THERE IS SOMETHING TO THIS PHENOMENON.) OMG I HOPE I DIDN'T JUST MAKE MYSELF SOUND IGNORANT. SORRY GUYS.

First of all, even if you're 11, you need to learn the forum rules. Try and find it under the INFO menu at the top of the screen.

Secondly, KILL YOUR CAPS LOCK. Forum etiquette (i.e. proper manners) imply that you are SHOUTING when you use all caps.

Thirdly, when using this forum, stick to a narrow, on-topic discussion in each thread. You are already meandering all over the place when all you started with is to know if magnets work in vacuum. Somehow, that has deteriorated into something else.

Finally, this is a wonderful place to learn. However, it doesn't mean that you can make mindless guesses. Not only doing that violates our forum rules, but it WILL make you sound ignorant. Learn simple things FIRST, because you need those to understand more difficult things.

Zz.

 

[berkeman]

I have been thinking about how us an in (HOMO SAPIEN SAPIEN), A YEAR TO ME SEEMS TO TAKE FOREVER BUT MY MOM , I WILL NOT GIVE HER AGE SHE WOULD KILL ME:-). SHE ALWAYS IS SAYING TIME FLIES. BUT I AM STARTING TO BELIEVE THAT HOW WE PERCIEVE PASSAGE OF TIME. THE ONLY WAY I HAVEE FIGURED OUT HOW TO GIVE IS AN ANALOGY. PLEASE FOLLOW THIS AND LET ME KNOW IF I AM ON THE CORRECT PATH. HERE IS MY THEORY WHEN YOU ARE TEN YEARS OF AGE A YEAR IS ONLY ACCOUNTING FOR ONE TENTH OF YOUR LIFE. THAT BEING SAID IF YOU ARE FIFTY YEARS OF AGE THAT YEAR IS ONLY ONE FIFTIETH OF YOUR LIFE. SO I BELIEVE OUR PERCEPTION OF TIME CHANGES.(WE BELIEVE THAT TIME SPEEDS UP AS U AGE,NOT ME BUT PEOPLE IN GENERAL, HOWEVER I DO BELIEVE THAT THERE IS SOMETHING TO THIS PHENOMENON.) OMG I HOPE I DIDN'T JUST MAKE MYSELF SOUND IGNORANT. SORRY GUYS.

Yes, please do not post in all capital letters. It is against the forum rules (see INFO at the top of the page). Thank you.

 

[CWatters]

Just for info...

Have you heard of CERN? They use magnets to deflect a beam of protons into a circle. The beam of protons travels in a tube that is evacuated.

https://home.cern/topics/large-hadron-collider

Electromagnets were also used to deflect the beam of electrons in old fashioned Televisions (CRT tubes). These were also evacuated. In this vid the author makes his own CRT tube and uses a magnet to deflect the beam.



PS: There is a lot of good science stuff on youtube but there is also a lot of totally bogus/fake stuff. Anything to do with "free energy", "magnet motors" and most of vids that reference "Tesla" should be considered unreliable to put it politely.

 

[mfb]

There is nothing special about the magnetic field of Earth. It is just a very large and weak magnet. Jupiter, for example, has a larger and stronger magnetic field. Your fridge magnet is much smaller, but it has a stronger field. It will work in vacuum and in space in the same way it works on Earth.

A compass far away from Earth won't point North, of course (there is not even a "North" direction), because a compass relies on the magnetic field of Earth (or other planets).

 

[lychette]

Thank you for your insight, Maybe I have found an outlet for my thoughts and ideas. I am not trying to sound narcissistic but my teachers often get angry when I correct them, wether it is physics or World History:-). Thank You again

your criticism of physics teachers is probably unfounded,...physics teachers do not get angry !..your criticism of world history is for a different forum...

 

[DEMOCRATIS369]

Thank you for your insight into physics teachers immunity to human emotions. I apologize for not knowing the rules of the forum. I have gotten the hint, I no longer need to continue receiving replies from physics Teachers,Professors or savants.From this point forward I will only speak of physics.

 

[DEMOCRATIS369]

Just for info...

Have you heard of CERN? They use magnets to deflect a beam of protons into a circle. The beam of protons travels in a tube that is evacuated.

https://home.cern/topics/large-hadron-collider

Electromagnets were also used to deflect the beam of electrons in old fashioned Televisions (CRT tubes). These were also evacuated. In this vid the author makes his own CRT tube and uses a magnet to deflect the beam.



PS: There is a lot of good science stuff on youtube but there is also a lot of totally bogus/fake stuff. Anything to do with "free energy", "magnet motors" and most of vids that reference "Tesla" should be considered unreliable to put it politely.

 

[DEMOCRATIS369]

Thank you for your information. I may just do something similar to that when school starts up again. I have already made an electromagnet last year as well as demonstrated exothermic reactions. I apologize I am getting of topic. Once again, Thank You for your patience.

 

[DEMOCRATIS369]

Yes the large hadron collider, in 2012 don't the scientists there prove the Boson -Hicks particle exists? I believe it was Steven Hawkins who said that they would never find the"GOD PARTICLE". He also said and don't quote me, "if we do find said particle" it will be a short matter of time that we realize it was meant to never be found".

 

[mfb]

They found a particle called Higgs-boson (named after Peter Higgs).

I don't know where you got that nonsense about Stephen Hawking from, I'm sure he never said that.

 

[Buckleymanor]

There is nothing special about the magnetic field of Earth. It is just a very large and weak magnet. Jupiter, for example, has a larger and stronger magnetic field. Your fridge magnet is much smaller, but it has a stronger field. It will work in vacuum and in space in the same way it works on Earth.

A compass far away from Earth won't point North, of course (there is not even a "North" direction), because a compass relies on the magnetic field of Earth (or other planets).

Not totally true you have to work in the factor that a fridge magnet on Earth has an atmosphere surrounding it.A magnet in space does not.
I know it's pedantic but I would not like to state that the amount of force to pull one off the fridge is the same as the other.

 

[mfb]

Not totally true you have to work in the factor that a fridge magnet on Earth has an atmosphere surrounding it.

An effect smaller than 1 part in a million. Completely negligible.

 

[Buckleymanor]

Is it one part in a million depends on how flat your fridge magnet is and most are quite flat these days.
So not so negligible and even if it was it's still there.

 

[mfb]

What are you talking about? The magnetic interation does not care about a gas at all apart from the tiny influence due to the magnetic susceptibility, which is smaller than one part in a million. The position of the fridge magnet can be influenced by objects around it, but that is a completely different question.

 

[russ_watters]

My suspicion is that Buckleymanor might be thinking about a suction-cup like effect, but I don't see that applying here no matter how smooth and flat your fridge is.

 

[Buckleymanor]

What are you talking about? The magnetic interation does not care about a gas at all apart from the tiny influence due to the magnetic susceptibility, which is smaller than one part in a million. The position of the fridge magnet can be influenced by objects around it, but that is a completely different question.

No the original question was will magnets work in space ie. a vacuum I have pointed out they will but because of an atmosphere on Earth the amount of force needed to remove one will be different on Earth than in space.
You might not like the answer but that is what happens.
It's irrelevant if the magnet cares about gas or not but because of it it takes more force to remove one with an atmosphere surrounding it than one that does not.
The suction-cup effect does not really need to be applied just the uneven weight of the atmosphere on one side with a good contact of two flat surfaces. though it does happen with the more modern flat flexible fridge magnets go and try it.

 

[mfb]

Magnets work if there is a magnetic field. There is a magnetic interaction independently of the atmosphere, therefore magnets clearly do work.

but because of an atmosphere on Earth the amount of force needed to remove one will be different on Earth than in space.

The force to remove a magnet from another object also changes if you glue them together. How is this related to the thread?

 

[russ_watters]

It's irrelevant if the magnet cares about gas or not but because of it it takes more force to remove one with an atmosphere surrounding it than one that does not.
The suction-cup effect does not really need to be applied just the uneven weight of the atmosphere on one side with a good contact of two flat surfaces.

How? What do you mean? What, exactly, causes the force you are describing? Please describe the mechanism in detail.

What you are saying doesn't make any sense to me.

 

[Buckleymanor]

Magnets work if there is a magnetic field. There is a magnetic interaction independently of the atmosphere, therefore magnets clearly do work.
The force to remove a magnet from another object also changes if you glue them together. How is this related to the thread?

Gluing the magnets together has nothing to do with this thread .Placing the magnets in a vacuum or on Earth has everything to do with it.
To quote yourself
"Your fridge magnet is much smaller, but it has a stronger field. It will work in vacuum and in space in the same way it works on Earth".
Earth has an atmosphere it does not work the same way on Earth as in space and it is not surrounded by glue but it is by air.

 

[Buckleymanor]

How? What do you mean? What, exactly, causes the force you are describing? Please describe the mechanism in detail.

What you are saying doesn't make any sense to me.

How? What do you mean? What, exactly, causes the force you are describing? Please describe the mechanism in detail.

What you are saying doesn't make any sense to me.

The Buoyant force or lack of it.
The cause is that the object (magnet) is surrounded by air which has mass.
If one side or more or part of the object is not surrounded then the object does not experience the same upwards thrust or buoyancy from the air and in effect it has the accumulated weight of the column air above it pressing down on it.

 

[mfb]

Gluing the magnets together has nothing to do with this thread .

Same for everything else that is not the magnetic force.

The buoyancy of a magnet is absolutely negligible. it is also completely independent of its magnetic properties - it modifies the perceived weight from gravity. This changes if you go far away from Earth, of course - by 100%, not just by the ~0.1% the buoyancy provides on Earth.

If one side or more or part of the object is not surrounded then the object does not experience the same upwards thrust or buoyancy from the air and in effect it has the accumulated weight of the column air above it pressing down on it.

There we would be at the suction cup that got mentioned earlier. This has nothing to do with either buoyancy or magnetic forces now. You keep mixing different concepts.

 

[russ_watters]

The Buoyant force or lack of it.

Buoyancy is an upwards force: it acts parallel to the refrigerator door and would only serve to reduce the apparent weight of the magnet by an imperceptible amount. It doesn't affect the force between the fridge and magnet.

The cause is that the object (magnet) is surrounded by air which has mass.
If one side or more or part of the object is not surrounded then the object does not experience the same upwards thrust or buoyancy from the air and in effect it has the accumulated weight of the column air above it pressing down on it.

That's the suction-cup effect, not buoyancy. Suction cups work because the pressure of the air trapped under them is lower than the pressure of the air outside of them. And because they form a tight seal, pulling on them just increases the force holding them to the surface they are attached to. The effect can still be noticeable even for objects not tightly sealed to what they are resting on, such as when you pick a large board or poster off the floor and feel the resistance break as air rushes under it.

I don't think this effect could be noticeable with a refrigerator magnet.

 

[Buckleymanor]

Same for everything else that is not the magnetic force.

The buoyancy of a magnet is absolutely negligible. it is also completely independent of its magnetic properties - it modifies the perceived weight from gravity. This changes if you go far away from Earth, of course - by 100%, not just by the ~0.1% the buoyancy provides on Earth.

There we would be at the suction cup that got mentioned earlier. This has nothing to do with either buoyancy or magnetic forces now. You keep mixing different concepts.

So you stick by your statement that "Your fridge magnet is much smaller, but it has a stronger field. It will work in vacuum and in space in the same way it works on Earth".
That there will be no difference in all cases of fridge magnets and fridges as to the amount of force needed to remove the magnet from the fridge.
When considering magnetic force it is necessary to ignore all other forces that may be acting on the magnetic object in different enviroments if you want to be objective!

 

[Buckleymanor]

Buoyancy is an upwards force: it acts parallel to the refrigerator door and would only serve to reduce the apparent weight of the magnet by an imperceptible amount. It doesn't affect the force between the fridge and magnet.

That's the suction-cup effect, not buoyancy. Suction cups work because the pressure of the air trapped under them is lower than the pressure of the air outside of them. And because they form a tight seal, pulling on them just increases the force holding them to the surface they are attached to. The effect can still be noticeable even for objects not tightly sealed to what they are resting on, such as when you pick a large board or poster off the floor and feel the resistance break as air rushes under it.

I don't think this effect could be noticeable with a refrigerator magnet.

Go and try it my fridge magnets do appear to have this property.The flexible ones seem to be designed with this in mind.They stick more.

 

[russ_watters]

Go and try it my fridge magnets do appear to have this property.The flexible ones seem to be designed with this in mind.They stick more.

I think you're mistaking the magnetism itself for the suction-cup effect. Try this: take a magnet and try prying it off a hard, non-magnetic surface. I just did, with a 3"x3" flexible magnet: nothing.

 

[DEMOCRATIS369]

They found a particle called Higgs-boson (named after Peter Higgs).

I don't know where you got that nonsense about Stephen Hawking from, I'm sure he never said that.

He actually have made a bet with one of the Scientist workingon the Cern project. He actually bet one dollar that it didn't exist, he said that if it was found Human kind would find a way to use it for nefarious uses.A. K.A God particle.