Muhammad Caricatures: Middle East Reaction & Nordic Press

[Azael]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4670370.stm

I have to say that I have never seen a more ridicilously overblown reaction to anyhing. Boycotting a whole nation because of what one paper published.

I think this really shows how far behind the middle east is. If they can not even understand how freedom of press works they are in a really sad state.

I hope they atleast understand that not many of us nordic people really give a damn about how they feel on what we publish in our papers. I just hope no nordic politican will start kissing ass to smooth this over.:grumpy:

 

[devious_]

To Muslims it's a matter of principle and belief. Your attitude of "[we] don't give a damn about how they feel [if we do so-so]" is what's offensive.

 

[Azael]

well western papers prints satires on ALL religions. I would be very worried if papers didnt make fun and semi insult every belife there is including my own.

There is to much politicaly correct bull**** flowing around. The caricature just shows how the general population looks at islam. Maby the islamic countries should look within to se what makes the rest of the world have that view.

 

[devious_]

I agree. I'm Muslim and I think the current state of the Islamic world is just terrible. I also agree the political correctness is utter crap 99% of the time (e.g. the whole "merry Christmas" and "happy holidays" bs). But my point was that people have the right to be offended when their beliefs are insulted/disregarded.

 

[chroot]

Hey, you know, political cartoons the world over have made fun of the Pope, priests, Jehova's witnesses, Jews, and every other religion on the planet. Such cartoons didn't just poke fun at some group of people, they actually attacked a specific religion.

Did the Catholics rise up in holy Jihad against the New Yorker magazine? No.

Personally, the fundamentalist Islamic reaction to such cartoons indicates how necessary such cartoons are. The rest of the world needs to know how backwards these people are, and these people definitely need to learn how unimportant they really are in a global context. No group of people -- Christians, Muslims, or Jehova's witnesses -- is somehow singularly more important, or deserves to have their precious feelings coddled by the rest of humanity. In short, I think they need to get over themselves, and learn to live in a world of global communication in which the vast majority of people simply don't agree with them.

While I do not support our war in Iraq, and I am rather against the US' continued involvement in the politics of the Middle East, I'm definitely of the opinion that these are a people out to pick a fight. If a silly cartoon -- an opinion expressed by one person who is paid to make such silly cartoons -- can somehow become a rationale for mass hysteria, a boycott, death threats, or a Holy War, it does not bode well for their society's future in our newly globalized world.

- Warren

 

[Azael]

I agree. I'm Muslim and I think the current state of the Islamic world is just terrible. I also agree the political correctness is utter crap 99% of the time (e.g. the whole "merry Christmas" and "happy holidays" bs). But my point was that people have the right to be offended when their beliefs are insulted/disregarded.

Offcourse people have a right to be upset.
But there is a difference betwen beeing upset and crying out hystericaly. I don't se anything in those cartoons that deserves this kind of response. Some of them where quite funny.

There is much bigger issues that needs to be adressed in those countries.
For instance I don't se these kind of protest against the much worse insult towards muhammads teachings that suicide bombers represent.

Hey, you know, political cartoons the world over have made fun of the Pope, priests, Jehova's witnesses, Jews, and every other religion on the planet. Such cartoons didn't just poke fun at some group of people, they actually attacked a specific religion.

Did the Catholics rise up in holy Jihad against the New Yorker magazine? No.

Personally, the fundamentalist Islamic reaction to such cartoons indicates how necessary such cartoons are. The rest of the world needs to know how backwards these people are, and these people definitely need to learn how unimportant they really are in a global context. No group of people -- Christians, Muslims, or Jehova's witnesses -- is somehow singularly more important, or deserves to have their precious feelings coddled by the rest of humanity. In short, I think they need to get over themselves, and learn to live in a world of global communication in which the vast majority of people simply don't agree with them.

While I do not support our war in Iraq, and I am rather against the US' continued involvement in the politics of the Middle East, I'm definitely of the opinion that these are a people out to pick a fight. If a silly cartoon -- an opinion expressed by one person who is paid to make such silly cartoons -- can somehow become a rationale for mass hysteria, a boycott, death threats, or a Holy War, it does not bode well for their society's future in our newly globalized world.

- Warren

Extremely well put

 

[devious_]

You can't really compare the Pope, priests, Jehova's witnesses or Jews to Mohammad. Cartoons mocking Muslims and Islamic figures are very common, however there is a fine line between mocking such things and mocking the prophet of Islam. Sure, cartoons of Jesus, Moses, or whoever else, might be of the norm in Western countries, but that is not the case in Islamic countries. Graphically depicting prophets is a big no-no in Islam, which is why many people are outraged. I don't expect you to understand their rationale; in fact I respect your opinion to think it's silly, but that's besides the point.

Add this to the general mockery Muslims get from the media, and the result is an extreme reaction of sorts.

 

[devious_]

I don't se anything in those cartoons that deserves this kind of response.

Really?!

"The caricatures include drawings of Muhammad wearing a headdress shaped like a bomb, while another shows him saying that paradise was running short of virgins for suicide bombers."

For instance I don't se these kind of protest against the much worse insult towards muhammads teachings that suicide bombers represent.

But the cartoons are portraying Mohammad himself as a suicide bomber, or at least an advocate of suicide bombing.

 

[Azael]

Really?!

"The caricatures include drawings of Muhammad wearing a headdress shaped like a bomb, while another shows him saying that paradise was running short of virgins for suicide bombers."

That one with the virgin is what made me laugh out loud. It was spot on imo.

But the cartoons are portraying Mohammad himself as a suicide bomber, or at least an advocate of suicide bombing.

Well isn't that how the extremist muslims try to justify suicide bombings? They claim its what god wants and since mohammad is the word of god he endorses it in there oppinion. I don't even se why the extremist that calls for the eradication of israel should even be upset. Its just there belife put in paint. Maby they don't like the outside view of themself.

This is also the only view of islam many people get so obviously they relate mohammad to suicide bombers like in that cartoon. The cartoon is a perfect representation of the avarage joes view on islam.

 

[Azael]

I should point out that I don't share this view on islam. But I can freely admit that I laughed at that cartoon.

 

[devious_]

Ugh...

The cartoon could have easily depicted a random extremist, but instead they chose to mock Mohammad, the prophet of Islam. That is just crossing the line.

The fact that the average Joe thinks all Muslims are suicide-bombing fanatics and lunatics is precisely what is causing the outrage! The media is just helping spread this point of view.

 

[Azael]

Ugh...

The cartoon could have easily depicted a random extremist, but instead they chose to mock Mohammad, the prophet of Islam. That is just crossing the line.

The fact that the average Joe thinks all Muslims are suicide-bombing fanatics and lunatics is precisely what is causing the outrage! The media is just helping spread this point of view.

Well yes I agree that they could have used a random extremist. But they want to sell papers so they use mohammad himself. I am betting that paper sold more than anyone in its history.

The avarage joes point of view is reaffirmed everytime we hear news about a suicide bomber.
Its up to the islamic world to show they deserve the respect of the rest of the world, by cleaning up the word of mohammad and return to what is accutualy preached. Not this insane twist to endorse war.

 

[chroot]

Sure, cartoons of Jesus, Moses, or whoever else, might be of the norm in Western countries, but that is not the case in Islamic countries.

So what? They want to be engaged in worldwide politics, so they better get used to interacting with people vastly different from themselves -- people who don't hold their views, and don't have any obligation to uphold their traditions. The world's a big place, kids. Grow up.

Graphically depicting prophets is a big no-no in Islam, which is why many people are outraged.

Moral outrage is one thing -- sure, discuss among your friends how deplorable the cartoon was -- but threatening to bomb the newspaper that printed the cartoon? Give me a break! There's a wide gulf between newspapers being tactful and people being killed over a cartoon.

- Warren

 

[devious_]

Well yes I agree that they could have used a random extremist. But they want to sell papers so they use mohammad himself. I am betting that paper sold more than anyone in its history.

So you're saying mocking a religious figured whom millions hold in high esteem just to make a quick buck isn't a valid reason to be pissed off?

The avarage joes point of view is reaffirmed everytime we hear news about a suicide bomber.
Its up to the islamic world to show they deserve the respect of the rest of the world, by cleaning up the word of mohammad and return to what is accutualy preached. Not this insane twist to endorse war.

You make it sound like we aren't trying. There is an ongoing effort of social correction in the Islamic world, and there are several large organizations that are doing exactly what you're saying: returning the word of Mohammad to what it actually preached. But you don't really see that in the media, do you? Instead you see people mocking Muslims and portraying us as a barbaric society of extremists.

 

[devious_]

So what? They want to be engaged in worldwide politics, so they better get used to interacting with people vastly different from themselves -- people who don't hold their views, and don't have any obligation to uphold their traditions. The world's a big place, kids. Grow up.

Not holding someone's views is entirely different from outright mocking them, wouldn't you say?

Moral outrage is one thing -- sure, discuss among your friends how deplorable the cartoon was -- but threatening to bomb the newspaper that printed the cartoon? Give me a break! There's a wide gulf between newspapers being tactful and people being killed over a cartoon.

- Warren

Where did I say that I supported the death threats and such? In fact, like any other sane person, I'm completely opposed to them. Violence can only serve as temporary solution (I'm using the word "solution" lightly). The point is to start acting in a civilized manner, and this includes respecting people and their beliefs and opinions.

 

[chroot]

The cartoon could have easily depicted a random extremist, but instead they chose to mock Mohammad, the prophet of Islam. That is just crossing the line.

Is mocking the Pope because some priest fondled children somehow not crossing the same line?

The fact that the average Joe thinks all Muslims are suicide-bombing fanatics and lunatics is precisely what is causing the outrage!

Hey, if the shoe fits... can you name any other group of people who are regularly employing suicide bombings today? I can't. That's not to say that all Muslims are suicide bombers, but it's a fair bet that all suicide bombers are Muslim.

These fanatical Muslims want world recognition and respect. They want to bend the entirety of humanity to their will. They want to see everyone else subservient to them. The fact that the only tools they have available to accomplish this rather outlandish goal are some people strapped with rather weak explosives is, in my opinion, laughable. It's as if someone dropped a busload of kindergarteners on the steps of the UN, and the kindergartners tried to take it over by force.

What's ironic is that the more these militant Muslims try to achieve their goal, the more laughable they become. It's pathetic, really, that they've taken to killing reporters and engineers, and blowing up fast-food restaurants. They deserve every scrap of criticism they get, from any media, cartoon, or editorial. They deserve to face the reality of how unsuccessful their Holy War has really been, or how little anyone else in the world respects them for trying to appoint themselves supreme rulers. The world's a big place, kids. Grow up.

- Warren

 

[Azael]

So you're saying mocking a religious figured whom millions hold in high esteem just to make a quick buck isn't a valid reason to be pissed off?

no not realy. People just have to accept that is how the world works. Nothing is to sacred to be made fun of by someone. Going around getting pissed and threatening to bomb someone for a cheap joke is not a sane response.

One thing to be a little pist. Another to boycott a whole country and demand a apology from a government that has nothing to do with the paper.

You make it sound like we aren't trying. There is an ongoing effort of social correction in the Islamic world, and there are several large organizations that are doing exactly what you're saying: returning the word of Mohammad to what it actually preached. But you don't really see that in the media, do you? Instead you see people mocking Muslims and portraying us as a barbaric society of extremists.

Im aware that you are trying. I am just speaking like a avarage joe would.
The middle eastern countries needs a serious make over for the world to look upon islam differently. Most people are not even aware that there is more muslims outside of the middle east.
When you have people like the iranian president saying what he does that is what people will think. The newspapers in the western world doesn't even have to try to make islam look very bad when it is in this state.

More good news about the fight against terrorism in the islamic countries would be welcommed by me for sure. But it appears to do little good from a outside observer.

 

[chroot]

The point is to start acting in a civilized manner, and this includes respecting people and their beliefs and opinions.

In my opinon, that's dead wrong. The point is for them to start acting in a manner that recognizes that the rest of humanity has no obligation to respect them or their beliefs.

Sure, it's nice for newspapers to remain tactful and respect the beliefs of all people -- but there's absolutely no obligation involved, nor should there be any.

- Warren

 

[devious_]

Mocking the pope is crossing the same line in the sense that it's a gross generalization. The fact that the majority of the Christian world hasn't reacted is irrelevant, since they've gotten used to such things. My point was Muslims haven't.

And I don't see how this discussion turned into the evils of suicide bombings?

 

[devious_]

The point is for them to start acting in a manner that recognizes that the rest of humanity has no obligation to respect them or their beliefs.

And yet we are obliged to act in a manner that the rest of humanity approves of?

 

[chroot]

Mocking the pope is crossing the same line in the sense that it's a gross generalization. The fact that the majority of the Christian world hasn't reacted is irrelevant, since they've gotten used to such things. My point was Muslims haven't.

Then I say: Welcome to the real world, chaps. Free people don't always agree with you.

And yet we are obliged to act in a manner that the rest of humanity approves of?

Who's we? I'm not obliged to speak in any specific manner, as I'm a free person.

- Warren

 

[Azael]

Mocking the pope is crossing the same line in the sense that it's a gross generalization. The fact that the majority of the Christian world hasn't reacted is irrelevant, since they've gotten used to such things. My point was Muslims haven't.

And I don't see how this discussion turned into the evils of suicide bombings?

well our point is that the muslim world needs to get used to getting mocked just like the rest of the world is used to getting mocked.

 

[devious_]

Then I say: Welcome to the real world, chaps. Free people don't always agree with you.

This is going in circles. Not agreeing with someone is not synonymous with insulting them.

Who's we? I'm not obliged to speak in any specific manner, as I'm a free person.

"We" as in the Islamic world. And are you implying that freedom gives you the right to be a jackass? It certainly does not forbid such behavior, but civilized people posess qualities other than "freedom," or at least they ought to.

 

[Moonbear]

Really?!

"The caricatures include drawings of Muhammad wearing a headdress shaped like a bomb, while another shows him saying that paradise was running short of virgins for suicide bombers."


But the cartoons are portraying Mohammad himself as a suicide bomber, or at least an advocate of suicide bombing.

That's exactly how political cartoons work. They show the ridiculousness of a particular point of view. The extremist terrorists rationalize their actions based on a distorted view of Islam and Muhammed's writings, and the cartoonist is showing that distorted view so the world can see how ridiculous it is.

You can't really compare the Pope, priests, Jehova's witnesses or Jews to Mohammad. Cartoons mocking Muslims and Islamic figures are very common, however there is a fine line between mocking such things and mocking the prophet of Islam. Sure, cartoons of Jesus, Moses, or whoever else, might be of the norm in Western countries, but that is not the case in Islamic countries. Graphically depicting prophets is a big no-no in Islam, which is why many people are outraged. I don't expect you to understand their rationale; in fact I respect your opinion to think it's silly, but that's besides the point.

But you're supposed to find the cartoon offensive. Again, that is the entire point, to show someone how reprehensible something is in graphic form. If a political cartoon really is making you laugh, it has probably failed in making its point. It's satire, ridicule, it's not meant to be nice, it's meant to make people think. Regardless, if you are really horribly offended and think a line has been crossed, take it up with the cartoonist, write a nasty letter and ask for an apology, or tell the paper you will stop subscribing unless they stop publishing those cartoons, don't respond with violence or blame the entire country for it. That's just stupidity, and if anything, only reinforces the view depicted in the cartoon!

 

[devious_]

well our point is that the muslim world needs to get used to getting mocked just like the rest of the world is used to getting mocked.

Sure, that's as valid a point as any. My point is that as a "free" () person, I'm not obliged to accept being mocked.

 

[devious_]

Moonbear: I know, but what I've been trying to say is that the cartoonist didn't have to use Mohammad to portray his message. That's why there's this huge reaction, and that's why this cartoon is being treated differently.

Now I'm NOT saying that I agree with the way some people are reacting (which is obviously in some cases over the top), but personally I'm not amused that the prophet of my religion was mocked in such a way.

 

[chroot]

This is going in circles. Not agreeing with someone is not synonymous with insulting them.

I've already agreed that newspapers should, as a rule, try to stay neutral and respectful of all people. At the same time, opinions vary widely all over the world, and it's a certainty that some people will be offended by some publications some of the time. A much larger issue is the freedom of press itself, and the more-or-less global belief that people should not be killed for having a different opinion.

"We" as in the Islamic world. And are you implying that freedom gives you the right to be a jackass? It certainly does not forbid such behavior, but civilized people posess qualities other than "freedom," or at least they ought to.

Yeah, as a matter of fact, I think people should be free to be jackasses, insofar as being a jackass doesn't involve blowing other people up. I stand firmly by the freedoms of speech and press as necessary ingredients of peaceful society. If a newspaper offends you, don't read it. Hell, publish your own.

And let me get this straight: I'm a jackass because I sided with the newspaper's freedom to publish what they wish, and not with the Islamic fundamentalists who want to bomb it for a cartoon? Is that how you feel?

- Warren

 

[Anttech]

Sure, it's nice for newspapers to remain tactful and respect the beliefs of all people -- but there's absolutely no obligation involved, nor should there be any.

Well there is Liable, but I don't think Mohammad would be able to take the paper to court. :)

It comes down to this, the cartoon was over the top, as is the responce of some Muslims. The Islamic world has a culture of shouting lots (Bit like the mediteranian countries) they will shout and scream and burn flags wave hands etc etc... The "West" will look at this in amazment as people in the west don't see this as appropriate behavour.

The whole thing will die down in a month or so :)

Its just a cartoon, I am sure our Monolithic God will forgive us Muslim or chrisitian or Jew..

 

[chroot]

Sure, that's as valid a point as any. My point is that as a "free" () person, I'm not obliged to accept being mocked.

You don't have to accept it. As Moonbear said, you can write a petition, write an editorial, go scream your message in the street, cancel your subscription, complain on a website, or anything else you wish. You should not, however, advocate killing the cartoonist!

- Warren

 

[devious_]

I didn't say you were a jackass. I was kind of afraid that you would interpret it like that. Sorry!

I also agree that people should be free to do what they want (within reason). Moreover, I feel that people should have be free to feel offended and act accordingly.

 

[chroot]

but personally I'm not amused that the prophet of my religion was mocked in such a way.

Well, gee, I'm not really amused that one of my family was killed in the suicide bombings of the World Trade Center, in the name of Allah.

I guess we're both not amused, then, eh? Boo hoo. Cry your eyes out for the meanie cartoon.

- Warren

 

[devious_]

It comes down to this, the cartoon was over the top, as is the responce of some Muslims

That is exactly what I've been trying to say over and over again.

But every time I get responses similar to:

You should not, however, advocate killing the cartoonist!

Which is obviously one of the "over the top" reactions.

 

[chroot]

I didn't say you were a jackass. I was kind of afraid that you would interpret it like that. Sorry!

Thanks, I was a little worried you were venturing into personal-attack territory. I apologize if you feel that I have attacked you personally -- I haven't intended to.

I also agree that people should be free to do what they want (within reason). Moreover, I feel that people should have be free to feel offended and act accordingly.

I whole-heartedly agree. The troublesome word is "accordingly." The majority of people on this planet agree that bombing the newspaper office is not a reasonable response.

- Warren

 

[devious_]

I guess we're both not amused, then, eh?

Exactly. Is that so wrong?

The majority of people on this planet agree that bombing the newspaper office is not a reasonable response.

And I happen to be part of that majority.

 

[Anttech]

Well, gee, I'm not really amused that one of my family was killed in the suicide bombings of the World Trade Center, in the name of Allah.

I feel for you Warren, but you can't blame Islam for that. In the same way you can't blame Denmark for a Newspaper publication within that countries free press... They (Islam) have the right to wave there hands, scream, shout, burn flags, etc etc... And we have the same right to just ignore them...