PhD after being in industry (EE)

[gmovercl]

Dear members,

I am an analog designer and I don't get to do a lot of interesting design work at my job. There is a PhD opportunity that came my way which offers really interesting work (will be in a top tier uni and will be working on project for a world famous research institute). However, I would have to take a pay cut if I decide to pursue this opportunity (which I am ready to) if the PhD pays off eventually in the long term career.
I have been in the IC design industry for about 8 years working on circuit design and IC layouts. I would like to understand, if doing a PhD at this point in my career would boost anything significantly if I am coming back to the industry after 4-5 years. I am biased towards the PhD considering the challenging work and improving my design/research skills. But probably it might not make sense for me to start from 0 when I am done with the PhD and when I am coming back to the industry.

I would appreciate if you could share your experiences having seen such profiles/collegues/friends who went back to University after a long time in industry and back to industry after their PhDs. I know major part of the career growth depends on the individual, but I am curious to know if PhD really makes a difference in the analog IC design industry (in terms of quality design work you get, monetary benefits, growing up the technical career path, etc).

Having a proper direction would help me weigh pros and cons and decide.

 

[cabraham]

I went to grad school for PhD after decades in industry, almost complete. I need to finish dissertation, passed otherwise. My question is what degree do you now have. BS, BE, MS? What type of design work are you
doing? What do you aspire to do? I can give you advice, buf I just need some background info.
PhD studies really up your game. I recommend itg for those wishing to innovate & not merely apply.

 

[Dr Transport]

don't quit your job but take an educational leave of absence, that way you have a position to go back to. too many times I have seen this, people quit to go back to school and try to come back and they can't because their job has been filled...

 

[CrysPhys]

don't quit your job but take an educational leave of absence, that way you have a position to go back to. too many times I have seen this, people quit to go back to school and try to come back and they can't because their job has been filled...

I know that many years ago when company programs were more generous (don't know how available they are now), there were companies who sent people off for a masters. But these were company-sponsored programs; mainly one year programs (in special instances, two). Even then, however, if the company downsized, there was no guarantee that you would have a job when you finished.

Companies run much leaner now. I don't see how any would guarantee you a return slot when you choose to go off on your own to pursue a PhD program for ~5 yrs (that's way too long for corporate budgeting); especially since you have no obligation to return. And presumably, after you complete your PhD, you wouldn't return to your old slot anyway (assuming it still exists). So how could a company hold some (yet to be defined) new slot for you?

 

[Dr Transport]

I know that many years ago when company programs were more generous (don't know how available they are now), there were companies who sent people off for a masters. But these were company-sponsored programs; mainly one year programs (in special instances, two). Even then, however, if the company downsized, there was no guarantee that you would have a job when you finished.

Companies run much leaner now. I don't see how any would guarantee you a return slot when you choose to go off on your own to pursue a PhD program for ~5 yrs (that's way too long for corporate budgeting); especially since you have no obligation to return. And presumably, after you complete your PhD, you wouldn't return to your old slot anyway (assuming it still exists). So how could a company hold some (yet to be defined) new slot for you?

I left Boeing a year and a half ago, we had a guy in the group who was gone for ~6 years getting his PhD and they took him back into his old slot. There is no budget necessary to keep a slot open, they just need to have money when you decide to come back.

 

[CrysPhys]

I left Boeing a year and a half ago, we had a guy in the group who was gone for ~6 years getting his PhD and they took him back into his old slot. There is no budget necessary to keep a slot open, they just need to have money when you decide to come back.

I'd like to hear from others whether they know of similar arrangements, or whether this is an outlier. It seems bizarre that you would hire a PhD into the exact same slot that was previously filled by a non-PhD. And, who's been acting in that capacity in the interim? How does the company ensure that there is money available when the guy decides to return, since the timeframe for a PhD is variable? Unless you're expanding the group, do you fire the new guy you hired to fill in while the old guy was off at school?

But I don't know anything about the aero industry; my experience was in the telcom industry. In the period of 5-6 yrs (often much less), many organizations went poof ... so even if a nominal guarantee of re-employment were tendered, it would be rendered moot.

 

[mfb]

If the typical project scale is not too long (shorter than a PhD), you don't have fixed positions you would have to replace, "keeping the position" then just means a promise that they hire you again.

 

[CrysPhys]

If the typical project scale is not too long (shorter than a PhD), you don't have fixed positions you would have to replace, "keeping the position" then just means a promise that they hire you again.

I'm still skeptical about how common educational leaves are and whether they have any validity. Remember, R&D staff will typically be employees-at-will: the employer can let the employee go at any time (as long as there are no violations of certain safeguards provided by law), and the employee can quit at any time. Now consider the following scenario: An engineer is granted educational leave to pursue a PhD, with the stipulation that he has the guarantee of re-employment upon completion of his degree. Just as he completes his degree, his whole tech sector is in a death spiral (e.g., 2001 for InterNet services and the sectors that fed into it): small companies are going Chapt 11, and even large companies are laying off 25 - 50% in some sectors. The engineer's old group is laying off 40%. The engineer first panics: he can't find a job anywhere. But wait! He remembers that he is on educational leave and he has a guarantee of re-employment with his old company. So he calls them up, and his old boss (who miraculously is still there) says, "Why sure we'll take you back. I may have to layoff someone else to make room for you, but c'mon down." Doesn't sound plausible to me at all.

 

[Dr Transport]

I'm still skeptical about how common educational leaves are and whether they have any validity. Remember, R&D staff will typically be employees-at-will: the employer can let the employee go at any time (as long as there are no violations of certain safeguards provided by law), and the employee can quit at any time. Now consider the following scenario: An engineer is granted educational leave to pursue a PhD, with the stipulation that he has the guarantee of re-employment upon completion of his degree. Just as he completes his degree, his whole tech sector is in a death spiral (e.g., 2001 for InterNet services and the sectors that fed into it): small companies are going Chapt 11, and even large companies are laying off 25 - 50% in some sectors. The engineer's old group is laying off 40%. The engineer first panics: he can't find a job anywhere. But wait! He remembers that he is on educational leave and he has a guarantee of re-employment with his old company. So he calls them up, and his old boss (who miraculously is still there) says, "Why sure we'll take you back. I may have to layoff someone else to make room for you, but c'mon down." Doesn't sound plausible to me at all.

It has happened...

 

[mfb]

Remember, R&D staff will typically be employees-at-will

In the US maybe. Not elsewhere.

The promise doesn't even have to be legally binding to be interesting.

 

[Nidum]

In the uk aerospace industry it was once quite common practice for a few graduate entry employees with two or three years experience to be sent off each year to do MSc/PhD for the mutual benefit of both employee and company . Generous payment , no break of employment status and continuing regular involvement with company activity .

Basically these could be described as application specific MSc/PhD's . Employee gained advanced education in aerospace technology and did useful research work related to some problem of interest to the company .

Good way of doing things .

 

[CrysPhys]

The promise doesn't even have to be legally binding to be interesting.

What do you mean by "interesting"? The way I see it there are two principal scenarios when the engineer completes his PhD: (1) The job market in his tech sector is strong; companies across the tech sector (including his previous employer) are hiring. Then, regardless of whether or not he was on educational leave, he'll likely be hired by some company; no problem. If he specifically wants to go back to his old employer, they'll likely take him back anyway ... assuming his previous track record was good, he left on good terms, and his previous bosses are still there. (2) The job market in his tech sector is dismal: companies across the tech sector (including his previous employer) are laying off. So, now, if the promise is legally binding, he'll get rehired by his previous employer. But, if the promise is not legally binding, but "interesting" ... does he have a job locked in or not [it is this scenario that is of significance]?

 

[CrysPhys]

In the uk aerospace industry it was once quite common practice for a few graduate entry employees with two or three years experience to be sent off each year to do MSc/PhD for the mutual benefit of both employee and company . Generous payment , no break of employment status and continuing regular involvement with company activity .

<<Emphasis added>>
What era are you referring to? What about these days?

 

[CrysPhys]

Just to clarify: If your company offers such generous educational leave, then you might as well take advantage of it (assuming there are no downsides buried in the fine print). My main question has to do with how many companies offer such policies (not including programs in which the company sends the engineer to school at company expense). And a good point raised by mfb: How does this vary by country? (I just checked; the OP is in Germany) Also, we need to discuss current practices. I've seen a lot change since the early 1980's, when I entered the workplace (US). I'm concerned that readers of this thread in the same situation as the OP (going back to school for a PhD on his own) may come to the conclusion that educational leave guaranteeing re-employment upon completion of the PhD is a matter of right or a generally offerred practice, so we should clarify this.

 

[mfb]

The way I see it there are two principal scenarios when the engineer completes his PhD: (1) The job market in his tech sector is strong; [...] (2) The job market in his tech sector is dismal

I'm not familiar with the US job market, in Germany firing people is a very complicated process and hiring them can be complicated as well, as a result companies tend to have a more stable set of employees (at least for qualified jobs). That makes organizing a temporary leave for further education easier as well.

 

[CrysPhys]

I'm not familiar with the US job market, in Germany firing people is a very complicated process and hiring them can be complicated as well, as a result companies tend to have a more stable set of employees (at least for qualified jobs). That makes organizing a temporary leave for further education easier as well.

The job market in the US is vastly different from that in Germany; far fewer government regulations. I worked in a US corp with multi-national operations. When layoffs came, staff in the US was the easiest to cut (within certain government regulations to safeguard against discrimination). In Europe, staff in the UK was the easiest to cut, staff in Germany was harder (a German colleague gave me the run down on your social points scoring system), and staff in France was the hardest ... based on government regulations. The hi-tech job market in the US is volatile (with exceptions, of course); companies cannot guarantee that their current staff will be employed 6 mos down the road, so they are not in a position to guarantee re-employment 6 yrs down the road. There was a time in the US in which corps such as AT&T and IBM cultivated careers for life, but that era is long gone. I'm trying to determine whether the Boeing policy as reported by Dr Transport is an outlier.

 

[Dr Transport]

I'm trying to determine whether the Boeing policy as reported by Dr Transport is an outlier.

The individual took an educational leave of absence, that was a well known benefit. Matter a fact, I know at least two individuals who took and educational LOA, one came back the other got their masters then decided to quit and go on for their PhD. The one who came back got their position back, no questions asked, their slot had their name penciled in for the duration of the leave. Other companies I know of have the same benefit. Mind you, that during the time that one of the individuals was gone, there were no lay-offs and they came back. The other left, lay-offs happened, they were not laid off because they were on LOA (I am not sure if they could have been laid off or not), but in the intervening time, they decided to leave on their own.

I have no idea if the Boeing program is an outlier, the other companies I have worked for had programs where they allowed you to take courses part time and work a reduced number of hours a week, but you were part-time while getting your education. I know in one case, a company went into a down turn and they were going to lay off people, one of the the managers told the part-timer to change their status from part-time to full-time because if they didn't they would be the first to get laid off. (this particular company had a written policy, contract workers, part timers then full timers left in that order during layoffs.)

 

[Nidum]

@ChrisPhys .

I made enquiries and it seems that the remaining few large aerospace companies do still have integrated post graduate degree programmes .

Not organised quite like they once were and less in number I suspect but essentially the same as I described .

The ones that I personally knew in the 1970's and 80's actually did some of their research work on site using company facilities .

 

[gmovercl]

I guess we deviated a lot from the original post.

@Dr Transport : You pointed out an instance where someone went on LOA and came back to the same position after PhD. Would you be able to share if the guy was getting better projects/technical responsibilities post PhD or was he doing the same job what he did before going on LOA ?

 

[Dr Transport]

I guess we deviated a lot from the original post.

@Dr Transport : You pointed out an instance where someone went on LOA and came back to the same position after PhD. Would you be able to share if the guy was getting better projects/technical responsibilities post PhD or was he doing the same job what he did before going on LOA ?

Sorry it took so long to respond, I was traveling to see the eclipse, it went over my house and I was able to adjust my work schedule to go and see it.

The individual was not the type to go get a PhD to help himself at work, he did it purely for his edification (it was in numerical relativity theory and he didn't do anything close to that prior to leaving). Given that, he went back to his old job without any additional duties such as program management or better projects, as a matter a fact, they gave him a new hire to mentor and he made this individuals life so miserable, the new hire left the group so he didn't have to work on the project together. He essentially picked up where he left off years prior, same cube and everything. I will say he went back for the exact salary he left at, so he lost ~6 years of raises to the tune of around 20% salary.